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Thread: No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

  1. #1
    Vlad III
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    Default No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

    mod edit

    So now the big question is, if others agree that you are either 100% true or 100% false, how do you reconcile people that hold a belief about Jesus that might not be held by others? Are they therefore in 100% error?

    If a Baptist person believes that Jesus might've been married on earth, does that make him 100% in error about Jesus, on every issue, so as to merit God sending him to Hell for eternity?

    mod edit - Do not start threads aimed at specific board members.

  2. #2
    nrajeff
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    Good question: If having one heterodox belief ABOUT Jesus equals belief in a FALSE Jesus, "another Jesus who cannot save anyone," then how do they ALSO manage to allow each other la***ude of heterodox beliefs on what they arbitrarily deem "the non-essentials" ?
    I think maybe they go into denial mode as a way of avoiding the obvious illogical implications of their reasoning.

  3. #3
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Good question: If having one heterodox belief ABOUT Jesus equals belief in a FALSE Jesus, "another Jesus who cannot save anyone," then how do they ALSO manage to allow each other la***ude of heterodox beliefs on what they arbitrarily deem "the non-essentials" ?
    I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.

    Here are just a couple of examples.
    1. Jesus is God and has always been God. This is in distinction from LDS who believe that Jesus has NOT always been God but has been created from pre existing substrate.

    2. Jesus is the creator of Satan NOT the brother of Satan (the same applies for you and Jesus not being brothers)

  4. #4
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.

    2. Jesus is the creator of Satan NOT the brother of Satan (the same applies for you and Jesus not being brothers)
    I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

    So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

    Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

  5. #5
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

    So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

    Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?
    Don't you think that it is a big difference between God and satan being brothers verses God creating us and Satan?

    If you believe in a false god then you can't reasonably expect to live with the true God again, "donchathink"?

  6. #6
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Don't you think that it is a big difference between God and satan being brothers verses God creating us and Satan?

    If you believe in a false god then you can't reasonably expect to live with the true God again, "donchathink"?
    If someone believes God the FATHER created Lucifer instead of God the SON creating Lucifer, I can't imagine God, on the day of judgement, saying:

    "You believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior. You had faith in him. You tried to emulate him. You tried to live like he did. You loved your neighbor. You did all that I commanded of you. But since you believed that the FATHER created Lucifer instead of the SON, you must spend your eternal existence in a boiling vat of lava while in perpetual torment and gnashing of teeth."

    Is that what you believe God is like?

  7. #7
    Mesenja
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    Default That's not what Jim said

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.
    Jim never even entertained the thought that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible". Oh no in Jim's world everything is measured in absolutes. It is either the truth or a lie.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    Sorry but there is no entering your truth scale unless the condition I stated are met first. Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and Z is absolute lie. In which case there is no letter between then. If you back away from truth you fall immediately into LIES. All truth or all lies. There is no half way. A half truth is still nothing more than a lie. If I took a gl*** half full of pure water and mixed in half a gl*** of untreated water before it enters the treatment plant what I have is a full gl*** of filth. IHS Jim
    Where in this quote is there room to agree on "core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians" and disagree on other issues that are not "clearly laid out by God in his word"? According to Jim this is like drinking "a full gl*** of filth". Remember he said that "There is no half way".
    Last edited by Mesenja; 04-22-2010 at 07:46 AM.

  8. #8
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I find Joseph Smith jr is a cheap-con-man skirt chasing lying wantabe prophet with a trail of fraud, boasting, dodging, Zig-Zagging, vicious, with a xanthic personality.
    I think this just about covers it from A2Z.
    Please address the issue of this thread and stop trying to derail every thread with your blanket shotgun blast attacks on irrelevant issues.

    Thanks in advance.

  9. #9
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Jim never even entertained the thought that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible". Oh no in Jim's world everything is measured in absolutes. It is either the truth or a lie.
    False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However, I see these two circle as not overlapping.

  10. #10
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However, I see these two circle as not overlapping.
    You say false religions have truth and falsehoods. But the issue is whether or not there is a religion that is 100% true WITHOUT any falsehoods. And falsehoods can be simple opinions on doctrine that are not true, not necessarily blatent false teachings. So James is saying that the church is either 100% true or 100% false.

    So how do you reconcile a church where there are varying degrees of opinions that may or may not be actual truth? Are those churches now 100% FALSE or is there room for speculation, conjecture, and opinions on issues?

  11. #11
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    And falsehoods can be simple opinions on doctrine that are not true, not necessarily blatant false teachings.
    The key to answering your question is in your own statement above. The LDS church HAS "blatant false teachings" about Jesus, God the Father, and the gospel. So in this sense it is easy to spot truth from fiction.

  12. #12
    urloony
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The key to answering your question is in your own statement above. The LDS church HAS "blatant false teachings" about Jesus, God the Father, and the gospel. So in this sense it is easy to spot truth from fiction.
    False compared to what? Your dogma?

  13. #13
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by urloony View Post
    False compared to what? Your dogma?
    The Bible.

  14. #14
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Bible.
    LDS can reconcile thei belief about Jesus with the Bible quite easily. So it appears your argument is about whose interpretation of the Bible is the one that is 100% inerrant. Anything else and you have a 100% false belief about Jesus according to at least one LDS-critic.

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    LDS can reconcile their belief about Jesus with the Bible quite easily.
    Lets start with these two.

    Where can you read that Jesus was born to a Heavenly Mother in the pre earth life?

    Where can you read the Jesus has not always been God but became one of many gods during his progression?

  16. #16
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Lets start with these two.

    Where can you read that Jesus was born to a Heavenly Mother in the pre earth life?

    Where can you read the Jesus has not always been God but became one of many gods during his progression?
    Oh, you are looking for specific verses.

    No, there isn't a specific verse that states what you are looking for above. Just like there's no specific verse that says Jesus is the creator of Satan. But we look at the teaching as a whole and we can reasonably and logically make conclusions.

    For example, we can rightfully conclude that Jesus is a spiritual child of the Father, since Jesus even refers to the Father as HIS father. And we also can conlude that eternal unions of man and woman are of God (Adam & Eve) and we know that it is a law of God to be married in order to have offspring. So again a logical conclusion can be made that the Father also has an eternal companion.

    Now the question is, can you show a LDS person BIBLICALLY that these things cannot be understood as the LDS see them?

  17. #17
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Oh, you are looking for specific verses.

    No, there isn't a specific verse that states what you are looking for above.
    Vlad, that is the problem, there is no Biblical support for your position. You simply make it up and label it theology and you believe it.

    Christians don't believe in a Heavenly Mother because there is no Biblical verses that say there is a Heavenly Mother. Christians don't believe that God the Father and his wife had spiritual children in heaven because the Bible does not teach this. The problem is that Mormons make up these concepts that simply are not there.

  18. #18
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Just like there's no specific verse that says Jesus is the creator of Satan.
    Vlad, your statement above is completely false.

    Colossians 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

  19. #19
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Vlad, that is the problem, there is no Biblical support for your position. You simply make it up and label it theology and you believe it.
    You seem to be missing the point. But we'll use YOURlogic in a second and see if it helps or hurts your accusation.

    Christians don't believe in a Heavenly Mother because there is no Biblical verses that say there is a Heavenly Mother.
    There is no biblical verse that says thare is a "Trinity", yet you believe it exists.

    Atomic handgrenade diffused.



    Christians don't believe that God the Father and his wife had spiritual children in heaven because the Bible does not teach this. The problem is that Mormons make up these concepts that simply are not there.
    Again, we take the Bible as a whole, and along with other scriptures/ modern revelation, understand a bigger picture than the one you non-LDS see in regards to our existence and purpose. Yet these do not CONFLICT with the biblical accounts.

  20. #20
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Vlad, your statement above is completely false.

    Colossians 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Again...when you don't have a valid defense, call the opponent a liar. Oh well.

    But is what I said REALLY 'completely false'? I said there is no verse that specifically states that Jesus created Satan. And the verse you provided ALSO does not specifically state that Jesus created Satan.

    I can also look at verses that say Jesus will forgive ALL sins. And yet there is at least one sin he will NOT forgive. So I am quite content in understanding the verse you posted above that states 'ALL' as being 'ALL' but with at least one exception ie. our spirits.

    Again, you show that the Bible does not SPECIFICALLY refute LDS doctrine, and I have shown that the Bible SUPPORTS LDS doctrine as we understand it.

  21. #21
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Bible.
    The Bible isn't a religion, although some people seem to worship it. News flash. The question for you to answer was whether ANY religion on the planet is 100% free from incorrect teachings.

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    There is no biblical verse that says thare is a "Trinity", yet you believe it exists.

    Atomic handgrenade diffused.
    Vlad, the word "Trinity" is not is the Bible but the teaching about the "Trinity" is clearly present. That is the difference between LDS and Christians. LDS simply add theology that clearly is not there. For example it does not say "Heavenly Mother" but if it said God was married then that would cons***ute that God had a wife. But you and I both know that there is not any evidence in the Bible that God has a wife.

  23. #23
    James Banta
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    [Vlad III;53980]So says James Banta:

    "Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and z is absolute lie.. In which case there is no letter between then.. If you back away fro truth you fall immediately into LIES.. All truth or all lies.. There is no half way.. IHS jim "

    So now the big question is, if others agree that you are either 100% true or 100% false, how do you reconcile people that hold a belief about Jesus that might not be held by others? Are they therefore in 100% error?
    There are Christian that hold a different belief about the nature of Jesus as other have? I can't wait to see what that woud be..

    If a Baptist person believes that Jesus might've been married on earth, does that make him 100% in error about Jesus, on every issue, so as to merit God sending him to Hell for eternity?
    YES!


    How do LDS-critics like James Banta justify having such extremist views and not see how such extremism might very well destroy their own theological paradigm if applied logically to all religions, not just Mormons.

    You have yet to show that anywhere there are Christians that hold a different Jesus.. There are many who call themselves Christians That do.. The JW hold that Jesus is a lessor God than Jehovah God and, like mormonism, they teach that Jesus is a mere creation.. You know that Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a spirit child of God the same as all angelic creation including ourselves, Lucifer, and Jesus. We are all spiritual siblings, creations of the same God..

    But both mormons and JWs call themselves Christian. Neither of you teaches a God who is One Being. That that one God is from everlasting to everlasting, I include Jesus as being that God so as to take away the JW's concept that Jehovah God is eternal. So tell me what other "Christians" deny the Biblical concept of the nature of God? Which of these deny that Jesus is that eternal God? I can tell you right now... NONE, no true Christian denies that Jesus is God and that there is One and only ONE GOD.. IHS jim

  24. #24
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Vlad, the word "Trinity" is not is the Bible but the teaching about the "Trinity" is clearly present. That is the difference between LDS and Christians. LDS simply add theology that clearly is not there. For example it does not say "Heavenly Mother" but if it said God was married then that would cons***ute that God had a wife. But you and I both know that there is not any evidence in the Bible that God has a wife.
    You seem agree with me now!

    One can 'see' a teaching 'clearly' to justify their beliefs.

    Now, can you tell us which church/ religion is 100% perfect in doctrine?

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    You seem agree with me now!

    One can 'see' a teaching 'clearly' to justify their beliefs.

    Now, can you tell us which church/ religion is 100% perfect in doctrine?
    I don't agree with you at all. The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching about the Trinity is. For the unique concepts of Mormonism there is not these teachings to support your theology.

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