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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #176
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    As a note: The Kingdom of the Cults (now in the vicinity of some 750000 copies sold ), and Walter Martin has written many other books against many religions. Jill maybe can answer what happened to the money made from these books? Was it all donated to a '"church"--which church, etc?
    I am not sure why this makes any difference at all. If you write a book and you keep every penny does it make the book true or false? On the other hand does giving every penny away make the book true or false?

    Can you tell me your point BigJ?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am not sure why this makes any difference at all. If you write a book and you keep every penny does it make the book true or false? On the other hand does giving every penny away make the book true or false?

    Can you tell me your point BigJ?
    My point was that smearing others makes big money in this country---sadly. And so, yes---if this became WM way of a livelihood, I see a problem with it.''

    If people who listened to WM today came into my church and listened to a sermon, they would wonder if it was the same church the WM states that we are. He takes old writings from my faith/church that was growing and learning and trying to comprehend the revelations received and takes them to a new level--sensationlizing them and morphing them into something that I don't even recognize and then sells books off of it. For this reason, anything that WM says about any other religion, I tend not to believe. I have seen what he has done regarding my faith and I ***ume he does likewise to others.

    That said, the sad thing is that because of people like WM, a lot of people in our country are beginning to view religion in general as a bunch of fanatics (as you can't mock and criticize one faith without tainting all of religious faiths) who run from one wild rumor to the next when making decisions about very important things. Honest discussion is gone. Dr. Mouw is trying to do you all a favor by asking you to take an honest look at these tactics.

    And this thread is a perfect example of Christianity gone wild pointing fingers at the heretics while forgetting their own "heretical" history. This discussion board would not even exist were it not for the heretics of both our political and religious past.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 11-10-2011 at 12:06 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #178
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    My point was that smearing others makes big money in this country---sadly. And so, yes---if this became WM way of a livelihood, I see a problem with it.''
    The LDS smears other faiths in a very subtle manner, they make lots of money, and they hide where that money goes. It seems hypocritical to bring this up don't you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The LDS smears other faiths in a very subtle manner, they make lots of money, and they hide where that money goes. It seems hypocritical to bring this up don't you think?
    When I go to church, I never hear the teacher smear another person's faith. What is your "subtle smear" you speak of? Is it our faith that we have the true and living church? Is that a smear to you? Then every faith or even every evangelical (as we have seen on this site) who does not agree with how you see things is "subtling" smearing your faith.

    And I see exactly where the money goes in my church--temples, church buildings, our ward budgets, welfare systems, measle's vaccines for third world country, clean water projects, etc. Are you aware that the number one budget of the church goes to buliding and maintaining temples and ward houses and the second largest budget is to that of education. For every student that goes to a BYU school, they get a huge scholarship every semester to the tune of about $8000. I see where the money goes. Please, don't try to slander my church further as an excuse for what you do here.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  5. #180
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    My point was that smearing others makes big money in this country---sadly. And so, yes---if this became WM way of a livelihood, I see a problem with it.''

    If people who listened to WM today came into my church and listened to a sermon, they would wonder if it was the same church the WM states that we are. He takes old writings from my faith/church that was growing and learning and trying to comprehend the revelations received and takes them to a new level--sensationlizing them and morphing them into something that I don't even recognize and then sells books off of it. For this reason, anything that WM says about any other religion, I tend not to believe. I have seen what he has done regarding my faith and I ***ume he does likewise to others.

    That said, the sad thing is that because of people like WM, a lot of people in our country are beginning to view religion in general as a bunch of fanatics (as you can't mock and criticize one faith without tainting all of religious faiths) who run from one wild rumor to the next when making decisions about very important things. Honest discussion is gone. Dr. Mouw is trying to do you all a favor by asking you to take an honest look at these tactics.

    And this thread is a perfect example of Christianity gone wild pointing fingers at the heretics while forgetting their own "heretical" history. This discussion board would not even exist were it not for the heretics of both our political and religious past.
    BJ:
    Dr. Mouw does not hold any of my opinions at ALL! He speaks only for himself and decided to take far to much onto himself by apologizing for ALL Christians. This has angered me immensely for Dr. Mouw knows nothing of the dark secrets of Mormonism or he wouldn't have made the statement he did. As for the smearing of Mormonism by WM, sorry for he spoke the truths about how Mormonism came to be, and the false doctrines thought up by JS a known necromancer, liar, thief, wife stealer, vandal and traitor. This is a man whom you want to follow and have faith in? I think your leaders are the heretics with teaching that man was once a god and that you too can become a god, if you live ALL the laws and ordinances of your cultic church. When God himself has spoken in Isaiah that He knows no other gods, you can beat that that is true, for God does not LIE! Only foolish men who hunger for power and have delusions of grandeur lie, cheat and steal. Also, FYI, WM is not longer alive, did you even know that? With your comments here, you speak as if he is still with us, so I do think you owe Jill an apology for "Smearing" her father's good name! Would you want someone saying these kinds of things about your father?

    As for how WM spent the money from the sell of his book is no ones business. I am sure he used it to help provide for his family and pay for his radio time, is that a problem for you? If you wrote a book how would you be using the proceeds from the sales of it?

  6. #181
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    When I go to church, I never hear the teacher smear another person's faith. What is your "subtle smear" you speak of? Is it our faith that we have the true and living church? Is that a smear to you? Then every faith or even every evangelical (as we have seen on this site) who does not agree with how you see things is "subtling" smearing your faith.

    And I see exactly where the money goes in my church--temples, church buildings, our ward budgets, welfare systems, measle's vaccines for third world country, clean water projects, etc. Are you aware that the number one budget of the church goes to buliding and maintaining temples and ward houses and the second largest budget is to that of education. For every student that goes to a BYU school, they get a huge scholarship every semester to the tune of about $8000. I see where the money goes. Please, don't try to slander my church further as an excuse for what you do here.

    BJ:
    Do you not find it strange that the #1 budget item is spending money on building temples that do nothing for anyone? It is for doing work for dead people and how does that help? No one is given a second chance. Where does it speak of doing temple work for the dead in the Bible? NO WHERE! And there was only ONE Temple, the one in Jerusalem. Mormonism has taken it upon itself to spend millions of millions of dollars, given by it's members to build hollow temples. Luke 9:59-60, "He said to another man, "Follow me." But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father. But Jesus told him, Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God." So, what good does it do to do baptisms for the dead or do temple work for the dead when there are no second chances? Either one accepts Jesus Christ in this life or not. Now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor. 6:2, "For he says, I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I helped you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. " Do you see what I told you, no second chances Julie.

  7. #182
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    When I go to church, I never hear the teacher smear another person's faith. What is your "subtle smear" you speak of?
    1. Do you believe that I belong to the church of the devil?

    2. Do you recall from the temple ceremony where lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well? (this was edited out in the newest temple version)

  8. #183
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Please, don't try to slander my church further as an excuse for what you do here.
    I don't think it is slander to state the facts. And the fact is that the LDS has a whole lot of money and they hide where that money goes. Most churches openly present their annual budget for anyone to look at.

  9. #184
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't think it is slander to state the facts. And the fact is that the LDS has a whole lot of money and they hide where that money goes. Most churches openly present their annual budget for anyone to look at.

    Billy,
    This is so true. We have an annual budget meeting where all members are informed of it and encouraged to attend. NO monies are ever spent without the majorities approval if it and when it involves a major expense. All monies that had been spent is gone over so everyone knows where their giving is going. Why does the LDS Church think it is above asking the members for their approval, after all, the church couldn't run its day to day expenses without the ***hes they take in. Members deserve to know how their hard earned money is being spent. Course when the Prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    All from the Journal of Discourses--which you know was not written by Brigham Young, right? Your argument becomes circular if you rely on the Journal of Discourses to prove the validity of the Journal of Discourses as scripture. Clearly, one can observe that we do not use the Journal of Discourses as our scripture and that makes the point alone.
    "In having in your library the 26 volumes of the 'Journals of Discourses' you have a library containing the sermons of the Presidents and Apostles of the Church. If anyone tells you that the sermons found therein are not recognized by the Church, they know not what they are talking about."--Axel Andresen, ***istant manager of Deseret Book, 1963


    "The Journal of Discourses is listed as an official publication of the LDS Church in the following books:

    Essentials in Church History, by Joseph Fielding Smith, published by the LDS Church, p. 674.
    Deseret News 1989-90 Church Almanac, p. 188, published by a company owned by LDS Church.

    The Journal of Discourses is quoted repeatedly in LDS publications and in LDS conference reports. See for example, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, Religion 231 and 232, published by the LDS Church Educational System, 1986, p.83. See also Ensign Magazine (official publication of the LDS Church) May 1996, Conference talk by James E. Faust, of the First Presidency, p.7.

    It is inconsistent of the Mormons to question the accuracy of the Journal of Discourses while the LDS leaders continue to quote from it. They never follow their quote with a disclaimer about the accuracy of the account. This issue only comes up when someone outside of Mormonism quotes something from their leaders that they are embarr***ed about. It is a double standard." www.utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm
    (emphasis added)
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  11. #186
    Administrator Jill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    you would have killed on account of your heresy--so I find it almost laughable that someone who belongs to a Protestant religion who reads the Bible in English sees herself as defending "christianity"--as those who came before you who saw themselves as doing the same would see you as the heretic.

    As I said, you are just one in a long line of many who have done the same all thinking that they know best.
    Sigh. BigJulie, this is so over the top and off topic that it's going to have to go...maybe tomorrow.

    If you want to read about a lot of killing, try Mormonism: Its Leaders and Designs by John Hyde Jr. 1857
    http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=XgxFAAAAIAAJ

    He was an eyewitness to the world of Brigham Young.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  12. #187
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    "In having in your library the 26 volumes of the 'Journals of Discourses' you have a library containing the sermons of the Presidents and Apostles of the Church. If anyone tells you that the sermons found therein are not recognized by the Church, they know not what they are talking about."--Axel Andresen, the ***istant manager of Deseret Book, 1963


    "The Journal of Discourses is listed as an official publication of the LDS Church in the following books:

    Essentials in Church History, by Joseph Fielding Smith, published by the LDS Church, p. 674.
    Deseret News 1989-90 Church Almanac, p. 188, published by a company owned by LDS Church.

    The Journal of Discourses is quoted repeatedly in LDS publications and in LDS conference reports. See for example, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, Religion 231 and 232, published by the LDS Church Educational System, 1986, p.83. See also Ensign Magazine (official publication of the LDS Church) May 1996, Conference talk by James E. Faust, of the First Presidency, p.7.

    It is inconsistent of the Mormons to question the accuracy of the Journal of Discourses while the LDS leaders continue to quote from it. They never follow their quote with a disclaimer about the accuracy of the account. This issue only comes up when someone outside of Mormonism quotes something from their leaders that they are embarr***ed about. It is a double standard." www.utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm
    (emphasis added)
    Just a small comment on this.

    The leadership, generally speaking, has the discretion to pick and choose from the Journals, what is compatible with LDS doctrine (found in scripture). I know that anyone in leadership would tell you, flatly, that not everything in the JofD is current LDS teaching/thinking/doctrine. Some of it is opinon and some of it just plain wrong (like the Adam God theory).

    The critics, on the other hand, seem to take what they can find that is the most outrageously controversial and try to p*** it off as current belief and teachings of the church. That is deceptive, don't you think?

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It is when those quotes are taken out of context away from our understanding and scriptures and something that is recognized today as not supported by scriptures--but merely discussion.

    Jill and the rest of you would have the rest of the world believing that we go to church and use the Journal of Discourses and Bruce R. McConkies "Mormon Doctrine" as our scriptures. We don't. They are discussed very little and often only a small tidbit might be recited when something said supports the scriptures and our current understanding.

    As I said this dialogue---this is meant to sensationalize my beliefs and the best guess I can come up with someone doing this is the same reason Christopher Hitchens writes his books and essays---because there is a paranoid "christian/republican right' out there that will believe anything sensational and it makes money. Just look at how worked up people are getting just on this site alone. The truth of our religion is far more boring.

    As a note: The Kingdom of the Cults (now in the vicinity of some 750000 copies sold ), and Walter Martin has written many other books against many religions. Jill maybe can answer what happened to the money made from these books? Was it all donated to a '"church"--which church, etc?
    BigJulie,

    Once again, you're off topic but I have to say, the history of your religion is anything but boring.

    As a note: To set the record straight, The Kingdom of the Cults is actually at about 1,000,000 copies; it's been a best-seller for more than 45 years.

    It's amusing (since I can't see any logic behind it) that you think people should not be paid to research and write books on theology. Better take a look back into history:

    The Chicago Daily Tribune, September 12, 1875, A MORMON SAINT, DEATH OF MARTIN HARRIS

    "Mrs. Harris, knowing her husband's credulity and Smith's trickery, did all she could to stop the expenditure of money; but Smith not only plied [Martin] Harris with ‘revelations,’ but explained the certainty of making a spec out of the publication of the m****cripts. An edition of 5,000 would cost, say, $3,000. Joseph had a revelation that the books would sell for $1.25 each, and he went on to ***ure his victim that there was a chance to clear $3,250."

    Apparently Joseph didn't think there was anything wrong with selling the Book of Mormon.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Just a small comment on this.

    The leadership, generally speaking, has the discretion to pick and choose from the Journals, what is compatible with LDS doctrine (found in scripture). I know that anyone in leadership would tell you, flatly, that not everything in the JofD is current LDS teaching/thinking/doctrine. Some of it is opinon and some of it just plain wrong (like the Adam God theory).

    The critics, on the other hand, seem to take what they can find that is the most outrageously controversial and try to p*** it off as current belief and teachings of the church. That is deceptive, don't you think?
    I think if Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were alive today, LDS Leaders would not "pick and choose" anything.

    It's a double standard to say that some writings are A-Okay but the embarr***ing ones are not, Libby. Last time I checked, it wasn't the critics who wrote all those outrageous, controversial things.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  15. #190
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    I think if Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were alive today, LDS Leaders would not "pick and choose" anything.

    It's a double standard to say that some writings are A-Okay but the embarr***ing ones are not, Libby. Last time I checked, it wasn't the critics who wrote all those outrageous, controversial things.
    Past Christians of all faiths have said some very embarr***ing things. Cultures were different back then and I don't think you would want to lay claim to every single word the Reformers espoused, either.

    Spirituality is an ever evolving process (for all of us). It is not fair to claim that people (of any religion) are following or believe things, said by leaders in the past, that they simply do not believe or consider untrue. Church leaders, of the past, are often not representative of religion, today (not yours or LDS or anyone else's). Not to say there are not some things that are still considered doctrine and wise, but certainly not everything or anything one wants to pick and choose, to sensationalize.

  16. #191
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Past Christians of all faiths have said some very embarr***ing things. Cultures were different back then and I don't think you would want to lay claim to every single word the Reformers espoused, either.

    Spirituality is an ever evolving process (for all of us). It is not fair to claim that people (of any religion) are following or believe things, said by leaders in the past, that they simply do not believe or consider untrue. Church leaders, of the past, are often not representative of religion, today (not yours or LDS or anyone else's). Not to say there are not some things that are still considered doctrine and wise, but certainly not everything or anything one wants to pick and choose, to sensationalize.
    Libby,
    If past leaders made foolish statements and now the members of that faith do not consider those statements to be true, then what does it say for that religion? The only conclusion that any intelligent person can honestly come up with is this, "my religion MUST be false if that is what my past Prophet preached and believed." There is only ONE standard that the world can believe in and that is the Bible, which is God's Word! Christians have not changed in how they are to gain salvation. It has remained the same for centuries where Mormonism has constantly changed. Is this the restored church that JS started when being told by god that it was necessary and JS was the man of the hour? Seems it isn't anymore, for it has morphed into something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT.
    Well that depends on whether you plan on painting your definition of "Christian" with a broad brush, or a narrow brush.
    Careful though, too broad of a brush will include the LDS Church; too narrow of a brush and you might find yourself kicked out of your own Christian club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    1. Do you believe that I belong to the church of the devil?

    2. Do you recall from the temple ceremony where lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well? (this was edited out in the newest temple version)
    Interesting point, Billyray. Can you provide a citation pointing to the historical fact that in a Mormon temple ceremony, "lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well?"
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Past Christians of all faiths have said some very embarr***ing things. Cultures were different back then and I don't think you would want to lay claim to every single word the Reformers espoused, either.

    Spirituality is an ever evolving process (for all of us). It is not fair to claim that people (of any religion) are following or believe things, said by leaders in the past, that they simply do not believe or consider untrue. Church leaders, of the past, are often not representative of religion, today (not yours or LDS or anyone else's). Not to say there are not some things that are still considered doctrine and wise, but certainly not everything or anything one wants to pick and choose, to sensationalize.
    When Mormon leaders call themselves "prophets" and claim to speak in the name of Almighty God, they better be held accountable for ALL their embarr***ing, intolerant, and racist comments. This applies to anyone who thinks they have a "special" message from God.

    "Reformers" never claimed to be prophets--they didn't claim to speak for God; they didn't create their own version of the Bible, erase or edit His Word, and add phases like "white and delightsome." Big difference there, Libby.

    The very big problem with "ever evolving" faith is that it sounds an awful lot like, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
    2 Tim 3:7
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  20. #195
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    Interesting point, Billyray. Can you provide a citation pointing to the historical fact that in a Mormon temple ceremony, "lucifer asks the minister to convert people and he will pay them well?"
    http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

    LUCIFER:: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

    SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

    LUCIFER:: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

    SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.


    (Note--this section is lined out on the link indicating that it was in the prior ceremony (pre-1990) but has been removed from the current ceremony)

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Well that depends on whether you plan on painting your definition of "Christian" with a broad brush, or a narrow brush.
    Careful though, too broad of a brush will include the LDS Church; too narrow of a brush and you might find yourself kicked out of your own Christian club.
    2000 years of Christian Church history records the definition of "Christian" in black and white. There is no gray and a brush is irrelevant.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

    LUCIFER:: Do you preach the orthodox religion?

    SECTARIAN MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach.

    LUCIFER:: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well.

    SECTARIAN MINISTER: I will do my best.


    (Note--this section is lined out on the link indicating that it was in the prior ceremony (pre-1990) but has been removed from the current ceremony)
    Interesting and I'm not doubting you, since I've read several eyewitness accounts that support this. But what is the historical source the quote is taken from?
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    2000 years of Christian Church history records the definition of "Christian" in black and white. There is no gray and a brush is irrelevant.
    Really??? What is that definition?
    Many Catholics still say that doesn't included Protestants, and many Protestants say that Christianity should not be applied to Catholics.

    Please give a short but accurate definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    BigJulie,

    Once again, you're off topic but I have to say, the history of your religion is anything but boring.

    As a note: To set the record straight, The Kingdom of the Cults is actually at about 1,000,000 copies; it's been a best-seller for more than 45 years.

    It's amusing (since I can't see any logic behind it) that you think people should not be paid to research and write books on theology. Better take a look back into history:

    The Chicago Daily Tribune, September 12, 1875, A MORMON SAINT, DEATH OF MARTIN HARRIS

    "Mrs. Harris, knowing her husband's credulity and Smith's trickery, did all she could to stop the expenditure of money; but Smith not only plied [Martin] Harris with ‘revelations,’ but explained the certainty of making a spec out of the publication of the m****cripts. An edition of 5,000 would cost, say, $3,000. Joseph had a revelation that the books would sell for $1.25 each, and he went on to ***ure his victim that there was a chance to clear $3,250."

    Apparently Joseph didn't think there was anything wrong with selling the Book of Mormon.
    I guess this is your way of letting me know the the proceeds your father has made from smearing the beliefs of others has been kept in the family.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #200
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I guess this is......
    Julie.......Julie....

    you make such a shamefully personal comment .

    Im very disappointed with the whole lot of you bunch...---------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------

    do we all hide now behind "Jill started it"?

    My advice to you would be to disregard who started this like of conversation,,,clearly it has gone on too long if we are now getting down in the mud of talking about such personal private things of parents long missed by children.

    disregard, and take credit only for 'ending" the conversation that was off the rails anyway.

    Where is Fig when his brand of wisdom was seen lacking around here?

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