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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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    Default Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    Really?

    You can prove that Romney specifically does not believe in jesus Christ as his savior and redeemer?

    Have at it.

    Amazing that you have the power to judge another man's heart.

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    Administrator Jill's Avatar
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    dberrie,

    More than 2000 years of Christian history shows that the iden***y of Jesus is the same as it was during the time he walked this earth. That is biblical and historical truth. Christianity never disappeared from the earth; Joseph Smith Jr. just decided to redefine it.

    Sir,

    Once again, we are back to definitions. Even Brigham Young stated that Mormonism was NOT the same as historic Christianity.

    Try leaving emotion at the door and argue theology and history.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    I am going to ask all of the Mormon posters on here--and any poster for that matter, to read 2 Timothy chapter 2. In fact, it is good to read all of 2 Timothy--then pray about it and decide if you still want to post here.

    Jill wants to define our faith in Jesus Christ for us. She wants to define Mitt Romney's faith for him. I say, let us all act according to what we read and pray about and act on that.

    2Ti 2:16-17 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...

    And I hope that those who vote for our president, do so with prayer.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?
    db: Orthodox means to be true, and we as Biblical Christians believe what the Bible teaches. So to me, both are the same. Orthodox believe in the Creeds which I have no problems with, for they are scriptural. The Creeds always speak of ONE God, not many. They also believe Christ's atonement was given totally on the cross, not part in the Garden and the rest on the cross as LDS do.

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    Big Julie,

    Once again, please leave politics and voting out of this thread.

    Stick to evidence from history, and if you can't prove anything, feel free to "shun" this thread.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    Sir,

    Once again, we are back to definitions. Even Brigham Young stated that Mormonism was NOT the same as historic Christianity.

    Try leaving emotion at the door and argue theology and history.
    How is it simply an emotional response to acknowledge that you nor anyone else knows Romney's heart?

    And nobody is arguing that Romney is not part of mainstream christianity. He can still rightfully be called a Christian based on the basic definition of a Christian.

    theology and history are used by critics such as yourself to create a litmus test for who can or cannot be considered a part of your group. Just like speaking about salvation. Critics state that Jesus tells us all we need to do to be saved is have faith in Him. But then critics like you come along and clarify, add-to, take-away from, etc. the conditions in order to judge who will or wont make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    They also believe Christ's atonement was given totally on the cross, not part in the Garden and the rest on the cross as LDS do.
    Here is a perfect example of what I stated in this thread already. Critics add to the requirements of what it takes to be considered a Christian. Here, neverending is claiming that one MUST believe that the atonement happened TOTALLY on the cross.

    Does the Bible say this? No.

    Here is God according to the critics here:

    God: "Do you believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ?"

    MC (mainstream Christian) & LDS: "Yes"

    God: "That is good, for the power of my Son's atonement is the power unto salvation." "Where did it happen?

    MC: "On the cross."

    LDS: "Both on the cross and in the garden."

    God: "MC, go to Heaven. LDS, go to Hell."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what I stated in this thread already. Critics add to the requirements of what it takes to be considered a Christian. Here, neverending is claiming that one MUST believe that the atonement happened TOTALLY on the cross.

    Does the Bible say this? No.

    Here is God according to the critics here:

    God: "Do you believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ?"

    MC (mainstream Christian) & LDS: "Yes"

    God: "That is good, for the power of my Son's atonement is the power unto salvation." "Where did it happen?

    MC: "On the cross."

    LDS: "Both on the cross and in the garden."

    God: "MC, go to Heaven. LDS, go to Hell."

    Read Romans 5:11 please but know that Christ SHED his blood on the cross. In the Garden it says, his sweat was as it were, great drops of blood. An elephant is as it were a camel, capable of carrying heavy loads. An elephant is not a camel, and blood is NOT sweat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Read Romans 5:11 please but know that Christ SHED his blood on the cross. In the Garden it says, his sweat was as it were, great drops of blood. An elephant is as it were a camel, capable of carrying heavy loads. An elephant is not a camel, and blood is NOT sweat!
    (I thought you had me on ignore)??

    Anyway, regardless of the blood/ sweat thing, that still doesn't answer to why you have added to the litmus test that one MUST believe it was TOTALLY on the cross to be a Christian.

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    Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    dberrie---Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    dberrie,---More than 2000 years of Christian history shows that the iden***y of Jesus is the same as it was during the time he walked this earth. That is biblical and historical truth. Christianity never disappeared from the earth; Joseph Smith Jr. just decided to redefine it.
    There is little resemblance between the faith alone doctrines of salvation and the Biblical NT doctrines of salvation. Precious little.

    The "orthodox Christianity" of today bears little resemblance to the Biblical Christianity of the NT. Not even close.

    And any denomination teaching that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not connected to Biblical Christianity.

    The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: Orthodox means to be true, and we as Biblical Christians believe what the Bible teaches.
    No you don't. And you won't fare very well in any attempt to match your salvational doctrines up with the Biblical NT.

    Any religion claiming that there is not the first obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life has little in common with the Biblical NT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No you don't. And you won't fare very well in any attempt to match your salvational doctrines up with the Biblical NT.

    Any religion claiming that there is not the first obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life has little in common with the Biblical NT.

    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved. John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience. Also, "for all have sinned and fallen short" Romans 3:23. ALL means ALL, not just a few but ALL...that includes YOU dberrie. God's free gift of salvation is available to anyone who so desires to believe in Him, and salvation to me is not resurrection but Eternal Life! LDS have several types of salvation so when you're discussing with a Christian, you now know what we mean when salvation is mentioned. The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    There is little resemblance between the faith alone doctrines of salvation and the Biblical NT doctrines of salvation. Precious little.

    The "orthodox Christianity" of today bears little resemblance to the Biblical Christianity of the NT. Not even close.

    And any denomination teaching that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not connected to Biblical Christianity.

    The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

    db: CFR NOW! Mormonism can't even match its doctrines to John 3:16, Psalm 90:2. I find your post is deceiving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.
    Really? Why don't we start with the biblical nature of Jesus--about as close to salvation as you can get. Exactly how was Jesus conceived?

    Historic Christianity: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

    Mormonism: Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit.

    Journal of Discourses 1:50,51, Brigham Young – "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary . . . .When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost . . . . Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved.
    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience.
    Please do show where obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief.

    Whenever one sees terms such as belief, faith, trust, etc--obedience to Christ is understood as an integral component.

    For example:

    Term--house

    Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, windows, etc.

    Word term: car

    Integral components: Engine, transmission, seats, wheels, etc.

    Word term: belief

    Integral components: trust, obedience, following Christ, faith, etc.

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


    Also, "for all have sinned and fallen short" Romans 3:23. ALL means ALL, not just a few but ALL...that includes YOU dberrie. God's free gift of salvation is available to anyone who so desires to believe in Him, and salvation to me is not resurrection but Eternal Life!
    Me also. When I state salvation--that means eternal life.

    Yes, I sin. And that is the reason God has given us repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    If Eternal Life were free--why was everyone commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

    Eternal Life, as an opportunity is a free gift to all men--but the personal reception of Life is dependent upon obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life.

    1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


    LDS have several types of salvation so when you're discussing with a Christian, you now know what we mean when salvation is mentioned. The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?
    I'm not hiding anything--when we talk about salvation--eternal life is my point. Why would I "hide" any other meaning?

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    Really? Why don't we start with the biblical nature of Jesus--about as close to salvation as you can get. Exactly how was Jesus conceived?
    Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

    And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

    Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.

    Historic Christianity: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

    Mormonism: Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit.

    Journal of Discourses 1:50,51, Brigham Young – "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary . . . .When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost . . . . Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."
    John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

    Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 11-07-2011 at 04:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: please show me where the Bible teaches that I must first have obedience to Jesus before I can be saved. John 3:16 doesn't say anything about obedience, it just says, "that whosoever BELIEVES...." nothing about obedience.
    Taht's it? All you have to do is believe? Even the devil believes. And here, too, is this sleight of hand, where the critic says, "The Bible only says to believe and you are saved, nothing about obedience." THe LDS then respond that they believe in Jesus. Then the critic then starts the litnay of conditions, qualifications, and variables that are also required in order to claim you believe in the right Jesus.


    The LDS hide the meanings from the unsuspecting convert, why do you have to do that?

    The critics hide the meaning of "believe in Jesus" and do not reveal all of the other details that they claim are required for salvation. Why do you have to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"



    Please do show where obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief.

    Whenever one sees terms such as belief, faith, trust, etc--obedience to Christ is understood as an integral component.

    For example:

    Term--house

    Integral components: roof, walls, foundation, windows, etc.

    Word term: car

    Integral components: Engine, transmission, seats, wheels, etc.

    Word term: belief

    Integral components: trust, obedience, following Christ, faith, etc.

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."




    Me also. When I state salvation--that means eternal life.

    Yes, I sin. And that is the reason God has given us repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    If Eternal Life were free--why was everyone commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

    Eternal Life, as an opportunity is a free gift to all men--but the personal reception of Life is dependent upon obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto life.

    1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."




    I'm not hiding anything--when we talk about salvation--eternal life is my point. Why would I "hide" any other meaning?
    db: your last sentence is not true! There are many terms LDS use for salvation. Your doctrines teach a general salvation which is given to ALL men because that is only resurrection. You also teach in a personal salvation or individual or conditional and you call it, exaltation. This salvation comes by grace PLUS baptism plus works. Talmadge says in your Articles of Faith, "Redemption from personal sins can ONLY be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel and a life of good works." Now think about the thief of the cross as he was dying. Thank God, Christ was there and not Mr. Talmage, or the thief would have been forever lost. This man never did anything good or why would he be called a thief but he DID BELIEVE in Christ and nothing else. No works, no baptism, just belief!

    This obedience idea comes only from your doctrines. To be saved requires one thing; BELIEF in Christ. Again, John 3:16. And answer me this, who is EVER obedient? Who EVER does good? We are all sinners so we will fail at some point no matter how hard we try to be a good person....it is part of our sin nature which we can not change. If you fails in ONE POINT, YOU ARE GUILTY OF ALL! (James 2:10) Even ONE failure will condemn you or I but having been saved through the SHED blood of Jesus Christ, I now have been wrapped in His righteousness and that is what God will see when someday I stand before Him. My wish is for all LDS to understand this concept and be saved. God bless and have a good day today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

    And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

    Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.



    John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

    Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?
    Exactly. If the Holy Ghost conceived Jesus, then the HG is the Father. However we know that the Father is the father, so it makes perfect sense to understand the verse as meaning Mary was conceived through the power of the HG, not that Mary actually conceived from the HG.

    But in any case, we do not know the details.

    And like dberrie said, this is yet just another one of the points on the christian litmus test as to what one must believe in order to be saved. So much for belief in Jesus only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

    And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

    Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.



    John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

    Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?
    The Bible tells us exactly how Jesus was conceived:

    "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

    "The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God’" Luke 1:35

    The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.

    Jesus claimed "I and my father are one." John 10:30. They were one as the Holy Spirit was one with them. He claimed the Holy Spirit as his father in this verse. To deny that is to deny the historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity:

    "There is one God (Matt. 4:10; 16:16; 22:32,37). The Father is God (6:6,9,14–15; 10:32–33; 11:25), Jesus is God (1:23; 9:6; 11:27; 12:8; 16:27; 19:28; 25:31; 26:64), and the Holy Spirit is God (1:18,20; 10:20; 12:18,28,32). Within the unity of the one God are three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (28:19). All three persons of the Trinity, moreover, were present (and distinct from each other) at Jesus’ baptism (3:16–17). In view of this, it makes good sense that Jesus, before ascending into heaven, would instruct the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for each played a pivotal role in human salvation." R. Rhodes, Is Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit?

    Mormonism: "Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."--Journal of Discourses 1:51, Brigham Young

    And this is a key reason why Mitt Romney is NOT a Christian.
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    Really? Why don't we start with the biblical nature of Jesus--about as close to salvation as you can get. Exactly how was Jesus conceived?

    Historic Christianity: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

    Mormonism: Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit.

    Journal of Discourses 1:50,51, Brigham Young – "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary . . . .When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost . . . . Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."


    Bingo ! Jill. Good reference. Yaa hit-the-nail-on-the-head ! I read that quote in the Journal of Discourses years ago in a Deseret Book store ( Fashion Place Mall , in Murray , Utah ) . Plain as black ink on white paper.

    Christianity is CHRIST JESUS ! If someone ( well meaning as they might be ) is following something which has some speckles and sprinkles of "Jesus" stuff and some "aromas" of Christianity , then they think it must be Okay.

    Brigham Young was the really big leader / Prophet / President of Mormonism and the quote you used from the "Journal of Discourses" is actual-factual.

    To the LDS posters on the Thread ... This website is NOT your site. It is called the "Walter Martin Religious Info Net". If you do not get that or do not understand what/who Walter Martin was and what he did , then go to the front page and start reading / listening to some of his works. Listen to Jill's radio program. The website is not here to just pick-on Mormons , but is here to get the truth out to thousands of people with a computer and internet hook-up. Remember --- before you mormons get your feelings hurt , take your ball, and go home ... remember that it was YOUR Prophet who started things rolling , when he said that ; ..."All the Chruches were wrong , all the doctrines were wrong , and all the teachers were wrong..."

    It is the duty of Biblical Christians to stand up for the Gospel truth. To accept lies and half-truths from a well-meaning / photogenic politician/businessman are wrong. Two different Jesus Christs. One is Biblical. The other was cooked-up by a flim-flam artist who never did an honest days work in his life.

    The L.D.S. system { Corporation } has mega dollars and has built a Visitors Center and pays for much TV advertising. If you wish to be Mormons ... hey - if you are over 18 years of age ... you can join just about any group , but do NOT presuppose that just because the L.D.S. have the name "Jesus Christ" on the sign on the front of the L.D.S. Wards that they are actually a "Christian" organization.

    Christianity holds to John 14:6 . Mormonmism teaches that Joseph Smith must be confessed as a "Prophet-of God" before a person can get into the top level of Heaven. That folks is sheer blasphemy !

    It was Jesus who was whipped , beaten and nailed to a cross for our sins. Not Joseph Smith. That it why we can say --- without any doubt in our minds --- that neither Romney , nor any other mormon is a Biblical Christian. Mormons --- by the very words of Brigham Young ,,, are NOT Christians.
    Last edited by Decalogue; 11-08-2011 at 05:59 AM.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.
    Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

    I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

    That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    The Bible tells us exactly how Jesus was conceived:

    "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

    "The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God’" Luke 1:35

    The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.
    And how does all this change the fact that Jesus Christ never claimed but One who was His Father--and that was God the Father?

    And this Jesus maintained throughout His earthly ministry--and following His death and resurrection.

    Jesus Christ claimed God the Father as His God and His Father--what about that we are not understanding?

    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    So--if you claim that the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Father--is your claim that the Holy Ghost and God the Father are the same being? Or that the scriptures are wrong?

    Jesus claimed "I and my father are one." John 10:30. They were one as the Holy Spirit was one with them. He claimed the Holy Spirit as his father in this verse.
    Where in that verse do you find that the Holy Ghost was Jesus' Father? If being "one" with the Father is the cause of the Holy Ghost being the father--then was the Holy Ghost the father of the disciples also?:

    St John17:11--"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

    St John17:21-22--"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"


    To deny that is to deny the historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity:

    "There is one God (Matt. 4:10; 16:16; 22:32,37). The Father is God (6:6,9,14–15; 10:32–33; 11:25), Jesus is God (1:23; 9:6; 11:27; 12:8; 16:27; 19:28; 25:31; 26:64), and the Holy Spirit is God (1:18,20; 10:20; 12:18,28,32). Within the unity of the one God are three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (28:19).
    And how does any of that prove that the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus Christ?

    All three persons of the Trinity, moreover, were present (and distinct from each other) at Jesus’ baptism (3:16–17). In view of this, it makes good sense that Jesus, before ascending into heaven, would instruct the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for each played a pivotal role in human salvation." R. Rhodes, Is Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit?
    And how are you connecting this to your claim that the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus CHrist?

    Mormonism: "Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."--Journal of Discourses 1:51, Brigham Young

    And this is a key reason why Mitt Romney is NOT a Christian.
    Could you please quote the first scripture that states that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Holy Ghost?

    Again--the scriptures affirm that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father--not the Holy Ghost.

    If you are going to insist that Mitt Romney is not Christian because of this issue--it only would confirm you are not Christian also.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 11-09-2011 at 03:59 AM.

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