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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #276
    Decalogue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    And, here is the standard critics' response. Don't you dare question my Holy book, in the same way I question yours. That double standard in operation, again.

    I know very well what Calvinists teach, Decalogue (did you not read all of my post?) and I reject most of it. I don't believe in a God who picks and chooses whom he will "save". I believe in a God who displays love & mercy towards all of his children.

    I know about Ex-Mormons for Jesus. I get their newsletter (or did). I recently took myself off of their mailing list. Some nice people there, but I have moved on.

    If you will take the time to notice, I did not make any truth claims about the Book of Mormon, whatsoever. I simply said, lack of evidence doesn't automatically make it untrue. That is a fact.

    Please don't presume to lecture me about whom I should serve. I serve God and the truth.
    Talk about "back-peddling"...

    It was you that brought up the names of Calvin and Luther and Wesley. That is why I posted the info I did above. I did not want anyone reading the website to buy your false notion that those 3 gents were even a little bit like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

    I have been inside churches that are descended from those 3 gents , and I very much like it when either the Pastor mentions a quote from one of them , or a quote is inserted into the Church Bulletin/announcements page.

    Why ? Because those men studied and knew the old languages and knew how to exegete a p***age of holy Scripture so that the listener / person in the pew , would see that they are born in sin , and that they need a Saviour from that sin.
    They then pointed the people to the ONE Redeemer who can help. John 14:6 !

    Don't get upset with me . Look in the mirror and do some soul-searching . If you are taking time to type on your keyboard on this Thread and you are friendly with Mormonism ... well then , you are not friendly with The Lord God !

  2. #277
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    We are commandment to love the God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. Do you disagree? If you agree, what does that mean to you?

    What does santification mean to you?
    I am happy to answer your questions if you want but this forum is really about your beliefs not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    1. You are commanded to keep all of the commandments all of the time

    2. God doesn't command you to do something that you cannot do.
    Do you believe points 1 and 2 above?

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am happy to answer your questions if you want but this forum is really about your beliefs not mine.
    I was trying to understand your idea of sanctification because we believe it is a process that will take this lifetime and the next. We believe if our faith was perfect, we would be able to do all things God commands us (such as Peter walking on water.) But faith and obedience leads to more faith and more obedience which we call santification. That is why I asked you about what you believe about santification--not to talk about your faith, but to answer questions about mine. So, Billyray, you have already said that your faith is not perfect---therefore, how does your faith become perfect?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  4. #279
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, Billyray, you have already said that your faith is not perfect---therefore, how does your faith become perfect?
    I don't think I will ever have "perfect" faith in this life. As far as sanctification I have given you this in the past multiple times but I will be happy to give it to you again. This is a process where a person becomes more and more Christ like over time.

  5. #280
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    We believe if our faith was perfect, we would be able to do all things God commands us. . .
    1 Nephi 3: 7 . . . for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

    This verse says that you can keep the commandments because God does not give you a commandment that you can't keep.

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    1 Nephi 3: 7 . . . for I know that the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

    This verse says that you can keep the commandments because God does not give you a commandment that you can't keep.
    Yes---but God understands this is a process called sanctification as we learn to be perfect in Him.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  7. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't think I will ever have "perfect" faith in this life. As far as sanctification I have given you this in the past multiple times but I will be happy to give it to you again. This is a process where a person becomes more and more Christ like over time.
    How does this happen? According to you? How does a person "become more and more Christ like over time"?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #283
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    How does this happen? According to you? How does a person "become more and more Christ like over time"?
    Through the work of the Holy Spirit.

  9. #284
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes---but God understands this is a process called sanctification as we learn to be perfect in Him.
    So God give people commandments that they can't keep?

  10. #285
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decalogue View Post
    Talk about "back-peddling"...

    It was you that brought up the names of Calvin and Luther and Wesley. That is why I posted the info I did above. I did not want anyone reading the website to buy your false notion that those 3 gents were even a little bit like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
    Who is backpeddling? I stand by what I have said, regarding Calvin and the other Church "Fathers". In some regards Calvin was much worse than Joseph Smith. He allowed his friend to be murdered over a minor difference in Christian belief. That was standard practice in your church's history. But, you think it's just wonderful that he could exegete a p***age of the Bible well. Wow. The sins of those who agree with you are easily forgiven. Those who do not agree with you...not so much.

    And, I think Calvin and company were very similiar to Joseph Smith, in that their teachings were the foundation of new churches of their day.

  11. #286
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    And, I think Calvin and company were very similiar to Joseph Smith, in that their teachings were the foundation of new churches of their day.
    They are not alike at all Libby. Calvin used the Bible whereas Joseph used his made up scriptures for the basis of his teachings.

  12. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Through the work of the Holy Spirit.
    I agree--and through the work of the Holy Spirit does one do more and more that Christ commands and does that strengthen their faith as they see the "fruits" of their labor?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God give people commandments that they can't keep?
    No---through faith and thereby obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ, through the process of santification, we come to understand that in God, all things are possible. It is just not the one time deal you think it is---rather, it is a process in which God perfects us known as santification.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #289
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    No---through faith and thereby obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ, through the process of santification, we come to understand that in God, all things are possible.
    Does God give you a commandment that you cannot keep?

  15. #290
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't think I will ever have "perfect" faith in this life.
    Then how much faith is required for salvation?

    As far as sanctification I have given you this in the past multiple times but I will be happy to give it to you again. This is a process where a person becomes more and more Christ like over time.
    But that is the same claim the LDS have. They believe it is line upon line in obedience to Christ also.

  16. #291
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Ithink there are good moral christians out there. Also, disturbing are stats like these:




    I think when morality and gender are taught as eternal principles rather than just fleshy, earthly principles--that youth are more likely to abstain from pre-marital sex.

    BJ: this makes me laugh for I've known many a Bishop's daughter who got pregnant out of wedlock. Here in Utah County just south of where I live, the child molesters are out in full force and this is the one county within Utah that has more LDS than any other, because Brigham Young University is there. So, you see Julie, your church may teach good morals to their children but the kids do what they want regardless. They follow their natural tendencies for even they are sinners. The natural man is an enemy to God, so says your BoM. It matters not what religion one is, teenagers DO WHAT they want, ignoring what they've been taught, ignoring the talks with their parents. Do you have teenagers in your home? Do you understand the the peer pressures that our teens face today? Let's get real here. Your family values do not always matter to some teens. Teens today are exposed to more than you are aware of or you wouldn't have made such a naive statement. We raised two kids, taught them moral values but in the end, they did what they wanted. It's the way of teens today and I blame TV, video games and movies. Teens have this idea that they are somehow immune to getting hurt or getting pregnant, "oh, that happens to other kids, not me". That is why teens take so many chances....I know, not only with my own kids but with taking cl***es in Child Development when attending college to become a Nurse.

  17. #292
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I don't know---how about where the donkey does the correcting?

    Read the D&C and see how many times Christ calls on Joseph Smith to repent. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) understand that Joseph Smith is not a perfect man. We also understand he is the prophet of the restoration of the gospel of Christ and when we follow the gospel of Christ, we see great fruits.

    Julie,
    Guess you forgot what Christ told his disciples that he would never leave us nor forsake us. IF you believe in what Christ taught and said, then there was NO need for a restoration. As long as there was even one person alive who believed in Christ, his teachings and gospel were still here on earth. JS, went to far with his lies. Do you not see how your church is all based on lies? How can your foundation stand when it was built on sand?

  18. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Julie,
    Guess you forgot what Christ told his disciples that he would never leave us nor forsake us. IF you believe in what Christ taught and said, then there was NO need for a restoration. As long as there was even one person alive who believed in Christ, his teachings and gospel were still here on earth. JS, went to far with his lies. Do you not see how your church is all based on lies? How can your foundation stand when it was built on sand?
    No---I have lived the gospel, I have lived the truths. What you see if a misconception of my beliefs---that is all.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    BJ: this makes me laugh for I've known many a Bishop's daughter who got pregnant out of wedlock. Here in Utah County just south of where I live, the child molesters are out in full force and this is the one county within Utah that has more LDS than any other, because Brigham Young University is there. So, you see Julie, your church may teach good morals to their children but the kids do what they want regardless. They follow their natural tendencies for even they are sinners. The natural man is an enemy to God, so says your BoM. It matters not what religion one is, teenagers DO WHAT they want, ignoring what they've been taught, ignoring the talks with their parents. Do you have teenagers in your home? Do you understand the the peer pressures that our teens face today? Let's get real here. Your family values do not always matter to some teens. Teens today are exposed to more than you are aware of or you wouldn't have made such a naive statement. We raised two kids, taught them moral values but in the end, they did what they wanted. It's the way of teens today and I blame TV, video games and movies. Teens have this idea that they are somehow immune to getting hurt or getting pregnant, "oh, that happens to other kids, not me". That is why teens take so many chances....I know, not only with my own kids but with taking cl***es in Child Development when attending college to become a Nurse.
    I know there will be good and bad Christians and Mormons--I am looking at the overall stats and overall, truth helps in living a chaste life.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #295
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then how much faith is required for salvation?
    What is required? That I place my faith in Christ to save me.

  21. #296
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that is the same claim the LDS have. They believe it is line upon line in obedience to Christ also.
    1. Do you believe that you should obey all of the commandments all of the time?

    2. Are you capable of do so?

  22. #297
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I'm sorry I must have missed that definition of a Christian.
    Would you OK with me calling myself a Mormon even though I don't believe in the tenets of Mormonism?

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Would you OK with me calling myself a Mormon even though I don't believe in the tenets of Mormonism?
    What are you asking? Are you asking if it would be okay to call yourself a Mormon is you don't live by the teachings of Mormonism?

    Can you call yourself a Christian if you don't live by the teachings of Christ and think that just saying you believe or have faith is enough?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #299
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    What are you asking? Are you asking if it would be okay to call yourself a Mormon is you don't live by the teachings of Mormonism?
    If I don't believe/teach/live by the teachings of Mormonism would it be OK to call myself a Mormon?

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If I don't believe/teach/live by the teachings of Mormonism would it be OK to call myself a Mormon?
    No, but by that standard, you should not be calling yourself a Christian either.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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