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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #301
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I know there will be good and bad Christians and Mormons--I am looking at the overall stats and overall, truth helps in living a chaste life.
    Julie,
    Please, I don't care if you try all day to say you have the truth....No ONE keeps the commandments everyday, no one! You are naive to think such a thing. Your church believes it has the truth but again, why are there so many unwed mothers of LDS back ground who get pregnant, drink and do drugs? I've seen it. My own brother got caught up with the wrong crowd when he was 16, he was my father's favorite and they shared so much together. My parents were staunch members of the LDS Church and we were all taught the same. My brother got into smoking, and doing drugs. He sluffed school and almost didn't graduate from High School. He got his girl friend pregnant and got married when he was 18. Not a good way to start a marriage. So, you can say all you want that, "truth helps in living a chaste life" but that is not so! Teenagers WILL do what they want regardless of what they have been taught, it is just the way things are today and even during my teen years. Has this not been so down through the different generations? Some children are born to be rebellious, no matter how hard you try to teach them.

  2. #302
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Julie,
    Please, I don't care if you try all day to say you have the truth....No ONE keeps the commandments everyday, no one! You are naive to think such a thing.
    Who says I do---I just understand that Christ creates a way for me to keep the commandments and that by so doing, I am obeying Him. Does He expect perfection? Yes,--but He also expects it line upon line and precept on precept. So, as long as I am following the spirit, I am obeying.

    Okay, I will tell you of my personal experience. I have a dear friend who is born-again Christian. We both have the same number of children. We both raised them to love God and took them to church. We both taught them to be chaste. The children are now grown. All are good kids. But, her children lived the life they thought was good which included living with their boyfriend, drinking, swearing, etc. Mine lived the live they thought was good and didn't.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #303
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    They are not alike at all Libby. Calvin used the Bible whereas Joseph used his made up scriptures for the basis of his teachings.
    They are absolutely alike in the way I said they are alike...religions established on the, supposed, inspired teachings/revelations/interpretations of man. Not saying Calvin gave revelation, but he did teach/interpret scripture (just as Joseph Smith did) and he had his own unique spin, very different from what the Roman Catholics had been teaching for centuries, before that.

  4. #304
    neverending
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    [quote=BigJulie;102423]
    Who says I do---I just understand that Christ creates a way for me to keep the commandments and that by so doing, I am obeying Him. Does He expect perfection? Yes,--but He also expects it line upon line and precept on precept. So, as long as I am following the spirit, I am obeying.

    Okay, I will tell you of my personal experience. I have a dear friend who is born-again Christian. We both have the same number of children. We both raised them to love God and took them to church. We both taught them to be chaste. The children are now grown. All are good kids. But, her children lived the life they thought was good which included living with their boyfriend, drinking, swearing, etc. Mine lived the live they thought was good and didn't.

    BJ:
    I am so happy for you that you were such a wonderful mother. Now I will repeat myself. ALL CHILDREN WHETHER MORMON OR CHRISTIAN DO HAVE FREE AGENCY. NOT ALL CHILDREN WILL LISTEN NOR OBEY, IT MATTERS NOT WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT! Do you understand now? You evidently were blessed with children who gave you no troubles but I do believe that God gives us children that he knows we are capable of dealing with. In your case, God probably knew that you wouldn't be able to deal with rebellious children. I had only 2 children and my son caused enough trouble for 10 kids but today, he works hard, is honest, makes a 6 figure income and has 3 beautiful daughters whom he loves more than life itself. My daughter has 5 children all are super kids but my daughter married into money and it is all that matters to her.

    Once you've raised your children, taught them right from wrong, taught them values, it is up to them to chose to live those values or not. We can not live our lives for our children no matter how much we'd like to. I hope you will stop judging your friend for with what you've shared here, you are NO friend. Have you ever stopped to think of the pain her children are causing her? I am glad you're not my friend to say such things behind my back!

  5. #305
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Not saying Calvin gave revelation, but he did teach/interpret scripture (just as Joseph Smith did) and he had his own unique spin, very different from what the Roman Catholics had been teaching for centuries, before that.
    Do you believe that the Catholic church can support their unique beliefs from the Bible?

  6. #306
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post


    BJ:
    I am so happy for you that you were such a wonderful mother. Now I will repeat myself. ALL CHILDREN WHETHER MORMON OR CHRISTIAN DO HAVE FREE AGENCY. NOT ALL CHILDREN WILL LISTEN NOR OBEY, IT MATTERS NOT WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT!
    It does matter what they are taught---as you obviously believe or you would not be posting on this site. But here is the truth of the matter---the more correct the truth, the more likely it has a chance to "save" or children understanding that they have agency. So, if you teach a child that 1 + 1 = 3, they are going to have less chance of doing well in math than the child who is taught 1 + 1 =2. Understanding the eternal nature of marriage, the eternal nature of chas***y and the eternal nature of gender help children to understand not only that God commands them to marry, be chaste, etc., but WHY He commands them to. This helps children because they have a goal in their purity that goes beyond this life.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you believe that the Catholic church can support their unique beliefs from the Bible?
    You know what, Billy? I think anyone can support just about anything they want to, from the Bible. I have even seen Hindus and Buddhists support some of their beliefs from the Bible. And Islam claims Jesus, as well. Everybody has their own spin. So, in answer to your question, yes, I think they believe they can very well support their beliefs from the Bible.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    You know what, Billy? I think anyone can support just about anything they want to, from the Bible. I have even seen Hindus and Buddhists support some of their beliefs from .
    OK start with infant baptism. What verses can you use to support this practice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    You know what, Billy? I think anyone can support just about anything they want to, from the Bible. I have even seen Hindus and Buddhists support some of their beliefs from the Bible. And Islam claims Jesus, as well. Everybody has their own spin. So, in answer to your question, yes, I think they believe they can very well support their beliefs from the Bible.
    Thank you for your valient effort to try to bring some common sense into the arena here Libby. This site reminds me more and more of what I read in Timothy.

    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    After a while, doesn't it seem that we are engaged in just vain babblings and trying to answer "foolish and unlearned questions"? I think you have explained yourself well and where you stand. I hope I have done the same. I think Dberrie has attempted to do the same. At some point, it does seem pointless and just "increasing ungodliness" and "gendering strifes."
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    OK start with infant baptism. What verses can you use to support this practice?
    I have no idea, but the Christian Reformed Church, I attended for two years, believed in infant baptism, and they did support it with scripture. It was more inference than something that was plainly written (kind of like the Trinity doctrine), and had to do with the New Covenant. According to their doctrine, infant baptism took the place of circumcision, in the Old Covenant. Circumcision was a "sign" of the Old Covenant, and baptism is a "sign" of the New Covenant.

  11. #311
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Thank you for your valient effort to try to bring some common sense into the arena here Libby. This site reminds me more and more of what I read in Timothy.

    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    After a while, doesn't it seem that we are engaged in just vain babblings and trying to answer "foolish and unlearned questions"? I think you have explained yourself well and where you stand. I hope I have done the same. I think Dberrie has attempted to do the same. At some point, it does seem pointless and just "increasing ungodliness" and "gendering strifes."
    Yes, I think you all have done very well in explaining your views.

    It is a sort of exercise in futility, on boards like this, I agree. I don't really take it too seriously. It's all delusion, doncha know.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I have no idea, but the Christian Reformed Church, I attended for two years, believed in infant baptism, and they did support it with scripture.
    Which verses best supports infant baptism?

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Which verses best supports infant baptism?
    I don't remember specific verses, off the top of my head, and I am not going to do research on this. I had asked my Pastor about it, because I hadn't known that the Reformed Church did infant baptisms...I was surprised. I remember he referenced some verses where whole families had been baptized, once the head of the house accepted Christ.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't remember specific verses, off the top of my head, and I am not going to do research on this. I had asked my Pastor about it, because I hadn't known that the Reformed Church did infant baptisms...I was surprised. I remember he referenced some verses where whole families had been baptized, once the head of the house accepted Christ.
    Acts 16
    14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.


    Here is the verse that you are speaking about. Nowhere in this verse does it mention an infant. You have to ***ume it into the text. And nowhere in the NT do you find anyone baptizing an infant. It simply in not in the text. The model is that those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ are subsequently baptized as a profession of their faith.

    Now lets look at sprinkling. What verses do you use to support this practice from the Bible?

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Acts 16
    14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.


    Here is the verse that you are speaking about. Nowhere in this verse does it mention an infant. You have to ***ume it into the text. And nowhere in the NT do you find anyone baptizing an infant. It simply in not in the text. The model is that those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ are subsequently baptized as a profession of their faith.

    Now lets look at sprinkling. What verses do you use to support this practice from the Bible?
    Billy, just because you disagree with the interpretation, doesn't mean they are not supporting their beliefs with the Bible. They believe they ARE, indeed, just as you believe you can support your belief in the Trinity with the Bible, even though that specific word is never used, nor very well defined, anywhere in the Bible. It is mostly inference.

    This just goes to show that even mainline Christians don't agree with each other on some fairly important issues. The Bible can be read and interpreted in a mul***ude of ways.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy, just because you disagree with the interpretation, doesn't mean they are not supporting their beliefs with the Bible.
    Can you show me a single infant baptism in the Bible?

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can you show me a single infant baptism in the Bible?
    Can you show me the word "Trinity" in the Bible?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Can you show me the word "Trinity" in the Bible?
    The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the concept is.

    Now are you going to show me a single infant that was baptized and while you are at it can you show me sprinkling?

  19. #319
    Decalogue
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    Hey everybody on this Thread --- and especially the L.D.S. and friends of L.D.S. mormons ...

    Let's get back to the THREAD TOPIC ! Okay ?!?!

    "Biblical and Historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian" is the Thread ***le and it is being hijacked and derailed by mormons and mormon supporters.

    Right now --- this Lord's Day evening November 13th ... go to the front page of the website . Point and Click on "Enter" , and the next thing you'll see is a photo of Jill and to the left it says "Blog Talk Radio" ...

    ...Simply point and click your mouse-thingy ma-jig on the little arrowhead thing and listen. I just heard a real good lesson from Walter Martin and it would be good for any Mormon out there to listen and hear some good preachin' mixed in with some good teachin'. which I never heard in a Mormon Chapel , Branch or Ward or from the radio broadcast from Temple Square .

    Remember --- This is the Walter Martin Ministries website ,,, not the L.D.S. website , so maybe just quiet down some and try and be good guests here and learn something.

    The next lesson / lecture from Walter Martin on the playlist is about "The Maze of Mormonism" and he quotes from The Bible , and from Presidents of the L.D.S. group. Get your Bible open and follow along. { Galatians is in the New Testament between 2 Cor. and Ephesians. }

    You may never leave Mormonism .... but I think that if you listen to the lecture and read along with the Scriptures he reads , you will at least understand why Biblical Christians think that L.D.S. Mormonism is wrong. If it is wrong , and not a part of "Christianity --- then Mitt Romney , ( by being a member ) could not logically be a "Christian". Please listen.

  20. #320
    neverending
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    [quote=BigJulie;102436]
    It does matter what they are taught---as you obviously believe or you would not be posting on this site. But here is the truth of the matter---the more correct the truth, the more likely it has a chance to "save" or children understanding that they have agency. So, if you teach a child that 1 + 1 = 3, they are going to have less chance of doing well in math than the child who is taught 1 + 1 =2. Understanding the eternal nature of marriage, the eternal nature of chas***y and the eternal nature of gender help children to understand not only that God commands them to marry, be chaste, etc., but WHY He commands them to. This helps children because they have a goal in their purity that goes beyond this life.
    BJ: YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YOU! All my comments back to you went right over your head! Please read along, slooowly so you may get what I have been trying to tell you.
    First off I am sick and tired of hearing that your church is the ONLY one that teaches truth! ***OSH! Have you EVER in your life stepped outside your comfort zone and attended a Christian Worship Service? You would learn much for our sermons are ALWAYS about God and Jesus Christ and how we should trust and turn to them in ALL things. That we should walk the narrow path which leads us to God. We believe in family values, morals, living good lives, what do you think we're teaching our children? To be dishonest, to lie and steal, drink, smoke, do drugs and sleep around? I am appalled that you think so highly of yourself and think ONLY MORMONS TEACH VALUES!

    Again, even though you teach your children these things does NOT guarantee that your children will walk with God....they must live their own lives. Does this make sense to you? As I said, God knew that you are the kind of person that wouldn't be able to deal with rebellious children.....you were blessed. I've seen many LDS families endure heartaches due to rebellious children so don't pretend that every LDS family has all these little angels running around, for that is NOT TRUE! I told you about my son, he was rebellious which began not long after my father died; he was very close to his grandfather and it hit my son harder than I knew. It wasn't until my father had been gone 3 years before I found my son crying in his room and we had a long talk. I hugged him and told him how much I wished he had shared these things with me sooner but he was proud and was trying to act like a man, he was only 14.

    Now, as for this friend you mentioned. Have you ever given any thought to how she feels about her children? Have you EVER given it any thought, to how you would deal with one of your children having gone down a path that you knew would cause them pain along with yourself? Watching your grown child going down such a path is like waiting for a train wreck for there's nothing you can do but wait for it to happen. You can try and tell them that you don't approve of what they're doing but they most likely will get mad and tell you to stay out of their life. These are the things I am sure your friend has had to face. Have you EVER tried to be sympathetic with your friend and what she is feeling? I highly doubt it because you have your superior at***ude and of course, you think you have the truth and she doesn't....this example is pure evidence of how Mormons are so judmental and self-righteous! Your posts on this subject turns my stomach!
    Last edited by neverending; 11-14-2011 at 06:56 AM.

  21. #321
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the concept is.

    Now are you going to show me a single infant that was baptized and while you are at it can you show me sprinkling?
    My Pastor said the "concept" is in there, so it must be, right? Calvin thought so, as well. Did you know he supported infant baptism?

  22. #322
    Libby
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    Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it [baptism] without open violation of the will of God" (Inst.4, 16, 8).

  23. #323
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it [baptism] without open violation of the will of God" (Inst.4, 16, 8).
    And I think Calvin is wrong on that point.

    Can you find any verses in the NT that show that infants were baptized via sprinkling?

  24. #324
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And I think Calvin is wrong on that point.
    What?! I thought Calvin was a Master at exegesis!

    Can you find any verses in the NT that show that infants were baptized via sprinkling?
    Okay, you made me drag out my Ins***ute books. I was curious as to what scriptures Calvin used (because I knew his belief was based on the Bible, somehow). He wrote several pages on this subject and referenced scripture, as he went along. It was a building process (his mind was like a steel trap - very logical).

    He starts out with the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 17:14) and claims Christians are still under covenant with the Lord, just that it's a New Covenant. Interesting, because LDS make that same claim. Accordingly, he claims that Jewish sons were called "holy seed". the outward sign of which was circumcision. Children of Christians, therefore, being under the New Covenant, were to bear the outward sign of baptism.

    He goes into a LOT of detail. If you're interested, the Ins***utes are online and you can access this, yourself.

    He, then, proceeds to reference Matt 19:13-15, about Christ telling his disciples to allow the little children to come unto him. He has a lot to say about this (more than I want to post). Also, Luke 18:15, Matt 19:14, Mark 10:13. In the next section (Section 8) he explains that the Bible is NOT silent on infant baptism. He says infants are not excluded when there is mention of a whole family being baptized, so he is surmizing that they are to be "included". Calvin can certainly make a good argument, you have to give him that, on just about all counts. It's so funny to read him, though, because he includes personal remarks and is not above namecalling.

    He makes a comparison to women and the Last Supper. He said, if we were to take only that (the original Last Supper) into consideration, we would have to come to the conclusion that women were not allowed to partake (which was not the case).

    He makes a pretty elaborate argument, and you really have to read it all, to get the proper context and all.

  25. #325
    neverending
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    Decalogue, I am sorry for going off topic but sometimes things are said that I must respond to as was the case with BigJulie. Hope you will forgive me.

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