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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #351
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Can you find any verses in the NT that describes a baptism for ANY infant?
    I certainly can't and that is why I say it is not Bblical.

  2. #352
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Btw, Billy, I am not defending infant baptism. I don't believe water baptism is necessary, at all. I'm just saying that it CAN be defended biblically. Obviously, you disagree, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people (even scholars) do it, and believe that they are defending with the Bible. Same with other issues.

    Libby,
    What does infant baptism have to do with Mitt Romney? Can you not stay on topic?

  3. #353
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Not true... you made it clear before that you called me Richard because you thought i was using a sock puppet. I have no respect for someone who can not admit to their mistakes.


    There you go... in using that broad brush you just included the LDS Church. When can I expect my discount Christian card?

    theway! There are NO DISCOUNT CARDS, that's something you should take up with Pres. Monson with buying your way into your temple.
    I again must repeat myself, LDS ARE NOT CHRISTIAN! You can tell me til you're blue in the face that you are but, again and I'm not the only one who has told you, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT JESUS NOR EVEN THE RIGHT GOD! Will you admit that your Jesus was a created being? Will you admit that your god wasn't always god but was once a man as you but he progressed to attaining his godhood? IF you answer YES to these two questions then as I said, YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN!

    Oh, and I don't give a rats behind if you have respect for me or not! And now you are again sounding like Richard and I again will tell you that I called you that BECAUSE you respond to my comments just like he did. Has that now sunk into your head? I told you too that I am sorry if I offended you but that went right over your head too. I can't help it if you sound like a poster that I've had run ins with on another posting board.

  4. #354
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I'm sorry I must have missed that definition of a Christian. Can I please get the official version of it, instead of your critic rant? No offense, but your opinion carries no credibility, seeing as though you have been consistently wrong on so many things, like my name ever being Richard.

    And your rants have no credibility in my opinion so where does that leave our discussion? Thrown out the window I suppose. And you have been consistently WRONG on so many things too. I don't need to explain myself again and again. Either you understand why I called you Richard or not. Subject in now closed! And this whole thread has gotten so off topic it's pathetic!

  5. #355
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How about you answer my other question first. How do you know that every word in the Bible is from God?
    Libby,
    Because Jesus said this: "Heaven and earth shall p*** away, but my words shall not p*** away" (Matt. 24:35).

    What do these words mean to you? Was Jesus lying when he said these words? His word IS the Bible! His word still stands and has for millenia but I guess what Jesus said means nothing to you?

  6. #356
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Libby,
    What does infant baptism have to do with Mitt Romney? Can you not stay on topic?
    Why don't you ask Billy? I believe he started this line of questioning.

    If you guys don't want to read off topic stuff, just scroll on by.

  7. #357
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Why don't you ask Billy? I believe he started this line of questioning.
    It all started with your post below
    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    They are absolutely alike in the way I said they are alike...religions established on the, supposed, inspired teachings/revelations/interpretations of man. Not saying Calvin gave revelation, but he did teach/interpret scripture (just as Joseph Smith did) and he had his own unique spin, very different from what the Roman Catholics had been teaching for centuries, before that.

  8. #358
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    It all started with your post below
    I started out speaking very generally about biblical interpretation. I think you are the one who started the baptism questions. (I haven't really gone back to look). Doesn't matter, really. We have both been participating in the discussion and I don't see anything wrong with that. Threads almost always go off topic, eventually.

  9. #359
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Threads almost always go off topic, eventually.
    That is true and usually after the 4th or 5th post of the thread.

  10. #360
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That is true and usually after the 4th or 5th post of the thread.
    Yep....

  11. #361
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by libby View Post
    why don't you ask billy? I believe he started this line of questioning.

    If you guys don't want to read off topic stuff, just scroll on by.

    i don't have to scroll on by! The subject is mitt romney, not infant baptism, not anything pertaining to any kind of baptism either. Stay on topic or don't post!

  12. #362
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Can you find any verses in the NT that describes a baptism for ANY infant?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I certainly can't and that is why I say it is not Bblical.
    But Calvin taught infant baptism, that is the point. And you teach that infants are sinners.

    So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?

    Mitt Romney believes that all infants are born saved.

  13. #363
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    Libby,
    Because Jesus said this: "Heaven and earth shall p*** away, but my words shall not p*** away" (Matt. 24:35).

    What do these words mean to you? Was Jesus lying when he said these words? His word IS the Bible! His word still stands and has for millenia but I guess what Jesus said means nothing to you?
    I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

  14. #364
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
    We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.

  15. #365
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post

    [B]Definitions of Christian (n)
    1. believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody whose religion is Christianity
    2. from teachings of Jesus Christ: based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Messiah, and acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels
    3. relating to Christianity, or belonging to or maintained by a Christian organization, especially a church

    This is the definition of what a Christian is or a religion that calls itself Christian.
    Never--if one has to be able to identify with all three of these parameters--you could not qualify as a Christian, but the LDS could.

    Now, answer me this. If a person claims to believe in and follows Christ BUT the Christ they say they believe in is NOT the TRUE Christ of the Bible, then can they be considered a Christian?
    Seeing that the faith alone could match very few of the doctrines taught by Christ and His disciples, and found within the NT Biblical text--where does that leave you?

    How many of the Christians here have told you over and over again that Mormonism DOES NOT worship the true and living Jesus Christ of the Bible.
    But that is just an erection and disembowelment of a straw man.

    The fact is--any religion that claims that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life eternal has nothing in common with the Bible.

    What is it about that we don't understand?

  16. #366
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.
    I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

    Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

  17. #367
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post---I think when morality and gender are taught as eternal principles rather than just fleshy, earthly principles--that youth are more likely to abstain from pre-marital sex.
    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    BJ: this makes me laugh for I've known many a Bishop's daughter who got pregnant out of wedlock. Here in Utah County just south of where I live, the child molesters are out in full force and this is the one county within Utah that has more LDS than any other, because Brigham Young University is there. So, you see Julie, your church may teach good morals to their children but the kids do what they want regardless. They follow their natural tendencies for even they are sinners. The natural man is an enemy to God, so says your BoM. It matters not what religion one is, teenagers DO WHAT they want, ignoring what they've been taught, ignoring the talks with their parents. Do you have teenagers in your home? Do you understand the the peer pressures that our teens face today? Let's get real here. Your family values do not always matter to some teens. Teens today are exposed to more than you are aware of or you wouldn't have made such a naive statement.
    Huh? What are you saying here, Never? That it is useless to teach the gospel to our children? That it has no effect in their lives? That all teens have no morals?

  18. #368
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.
    John 6
    28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


    What works are required according to the above verses?

  19. #369
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But Calvin taught infant baptism,
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And you teach that infants are sinners.
    True

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?
    Who said that infants go to hell?

  20. #370
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.
    Yup--no telling what trash one can dig up on even the most sacred of them all, Jesus Christ. It was a common belief among the Jews that Jesus was the Son of a Roman soldier--giving his name, rank, and serial number.

    Here is some of the story:http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bi...lianazar_7.htm


    The evidence of the Rabbis


    The Jewish records of the Rabbis are of extreme importance in determining Gospel origins and the value of the church presentation of the virgin birth story of Jesus Christ. A common appellation for Jesus in the Talmud was Yeshu'a ben Panthera, an allusion to the widespread Jewish belief during the earliest centuries of the Christian era that Jesus was the result of an illegitimate union between his mother and a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera.


    The Talmud enshrines within its pages Jewish oral law. It is divided into two parts, the Mishna and the Gemara. The first discusses such subjects as festivals and sacred things. The Gemara, is basically a commentary on these subjects. When the Talmud was written is not known. Some authorities suggest a date of 150-160, around the same time the Christian Gospels began to emerge, while others say 450.


    The Talmud writers mentioned Jesus' name twenty times and quite specifically documented that he was born an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, nicknamed the "Panther". Panthera's existence was confirmed by the discovery of a mysterious tombstone at Bingerbrück in Germany. The engraving etched in the headstone read:

    Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9AD was transferred to service in Rhineland (Germany). 1

    This inscription added fuel to the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier Panthera. Cl***ical scholar Professor Morton Smith of the Columbia University USA, described the tombstone as possibly `our only genuine relic of the holy family.' 2 In many Jewish references, Jesus was often referred to as 'ben Panthera', 'ben' meaning, 'son of'. However cautious one ought to be in accepting anything about Jesus from Jewish sources, in the matter of Jesus 'ben Panthera', the writers seem more consistent than the men we now call the church fathers.


    Scholars, for centuries, have discussed at length why Jesus was so regularly called ben Panthera. Adamantius Origen, an early Christian historian and church father (185-251), recorded the following verses about Mary from the research records of a highly regarded Second Century historian and author named Celsus (c. 178):

    Mary was turned out by her husband, a carpenter by profession, after she had been convicted of unfaithfulness. Cut off by her spouse, she gave birth to Jesus, a *******; that Jesus, on account of his poverty was hired out to go to Egypt; that while there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing.3

    Later, in p***age 1:32, Origen supported the Jewish records and confirmed that the paramour of the mother of Jesus was a Roman soldier called Panthera, a name he repeated in verse 1:69. Sometime during the 17th Century, those sentences were erased from the oldest Vatican m****cripts and other codices under church control. 4


    The traditional church writings of St Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis (315-403) again confirmed the ben Panthera story and his information was of a startling nature. This champion of Christian orthodoxy and saint of Roman Catholicism frankly stated:

    Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera. 5

    This was an extraordinary declaration simply recorded in ancient records as accepted church history. The ben Panthera legend was so widespread that two early stalwarts of the Christian church inserted the name in the genealogies of Jesus and Mary as a matter of fact.


    Enlarging on that statement, this p***age from the Talmud:

    Rabbi Shiemon ben Azzai has said: I found' in Jerusalem a book of genealogies; therein was written that Such-an-one (Jesus) is the ******* son of an adulteress. 6

    'Such-an-one' was one of the well-known subs***utes for Jesus in the Talmud, as has been proved and admitted on either side. Shiemon ben Azzai flourished at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Century. He was one of four famous Rabbis, who according to Talmudic tradition 'entered Paradise'. He was a Ch***id (the pious Jews of Palestine), most probably an Essene and remained a celibate and rigid ascetic until his death.


    The story of Mary's pregnancy by a Roman soldier also appeared in the sacred book of the Moslems, the Koran. It stated that 'a full-grown man' forced his attentions on Mary, and in her fear of the disgrace that would follow she left the area and bore Jesus in secret. This story was supported in the Gospel of Luke, with the description of the departure of Joseph and Mary from their home prior to the birth. Rape was a common event in Palestine during the Roman occupation and soldiers were notorious for their treatment of young women. It would be unthinkable for Mary to admit such an event had occurred for, under the Law of Moses, a betrothed virgin who had sex with any man during the period of her betrothal, was to be stoned to death by the men of the city (Deut. 22:21). Simply put, Mary faced the death penalty unless she could prove her innocence. 7



    I agree with Julie--it is an anomaly that the LDS church is known for it's morality and hard working members, their integrity and honesty--and yet--came from some scoundrel that was lower than dirt.


    Matthew7:20--"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

  21. #371
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Matthew7:20--"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
    I agree.

    Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

  22. #372
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 6
    28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


    What works are required according to the above verses?
    All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.

    As you stated:

    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

    Quote:
    Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

    Quote:
    Billyray---Lifesaving faith IS required FOR salvation so I am not sure what you are talking about.

  23. #373
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    John 6
    28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

    All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.
    According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

  24. #374
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But Calvin taught infant baptism,
    Billy---True
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And you teach that infants are sinners.
    Billyray---True
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?
    Billyray---Who said that infants go to hell?

    Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

    Again--what saves them from hell--if indeed your belief is true that infants are sinners--if they die in infancy?

  25. #375
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Who said that infants go to hell?
    I think we had this discussion before and you said you didn't know where infants go (one way or the other), because the Bible doesn't speak about it.

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