Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think we had this discussion before and you said you didn't know where infants go (one way or the other), because the Bible doesn't speak about it.

Correct. With the caveat that it appears that David's child who died young went to heaven. 2 Samuel 12:21-23

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


What works are required according to the above verses?

dberrie----All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.

As you stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray
Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

Quote:
Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

Quote:
Billyray---Lifesaving faith IS required FOR salvation so I am not sure what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Billyray

According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

Again--all the works that "belief" in Christ incurs.

We might begin by asking--what works are you referring to when you state--

James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

So--what works are you referring to?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Again--all the works that "belief" in Christ incurs.

I don't think you understood my question. Care to try again?

According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

So what is the problem?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

What works does James speak about exactly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

A 7 1/2 year old sins and doesn't require baptism according to Mormonism. Looks like a double standard doesn't it?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think you understood my question.

I understand your question, Billyray. My answer stands as is. Belief in Christ incorporates obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral components, just as a car has a transmission and engine as it's integral components.

What is your evidence that faith, belief, or trust does not incorporate obedience to Jesus Christ?

What works do you attach to your statement:

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I understand your question, Billyray. My answer stands as is. Belief in Christ incorporates obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral components, just as a car has a transmission and engine as it's integral components.

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Christ was asked a very specific question about what works were required and what did Christ say? To believe in the one he has sent. Period.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

What works do you attach to your statement:

None. Works do not contribute FOR salvation. The thief was saved and he did not have works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

dberrie---But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

Originally Posted by Billyray

A 7 1/2 year old sins and doesn't require baptism according to Mormonism. Looks like a double standard doesn't it?

You have another problem here, Billyray. The LDS do not believe infants are sinners. You do. The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

The Bible is silent on this fact with the exception of David's child. But Christ can save an infant because of his sacrifice. I am not sure why you see this as a problem.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

So you believe a kid who is one day shy of his 8th birthday is innocent and the next day he is guilty?

[dberrie2000]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

What works do you attach to your statement:

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

Originally Posted by Billyray

None. Works do not contribute FOR salvation. The thief was saved and he did not have works.

So--you state that faith without works is dead, and those who have dead faith are not saved.

Then--there is no works you attach to your "faith without works is dead" statement, and that there is no works necessary for salvation.

Billyray--someone is confused.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then--there is no works you attach to your "faith without works is dead" statement, and that there is no works necessary for salvation.

A person is saved by faith in Christ not their works. Just like the thief on the cross was saved by his faith because he did not have works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

Tell me what this means to you "Those who have dead faith are not saved"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible is silent on this fact with the exception of David's child. But Christ can save an infant because of his sacrifice. I am not sure why you see this as a problem.

That Christ saves through His sacrifice is not the problem--the LDS believe that--and, in fact, is the very reason that the LDS believe that infants are born saved.

The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

How does the Atonement bring infants to eternal life in your theology?

Which infants? How?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That Christ saves through His sacrifice is not the problem--the LDS believe that--and, in fact, is the very reason that the LDS believe that infants are born saved.

Is a seven year old who steals a candy bar committing a sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

Just like every single person is a sinner. As I said the Bible doesn't speak about infants so anything I say is speculation. But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism he could do the same under Christian theology. So I am not sure what you take issue with.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe a kid who is one day shy of his 8th birthday is innocent and the next day he is guilty?

Accountable. And the accountability of youth is not the same as adults, considering the youth and the adult is of sound mind.

Not all youth are capable of understanding right from wrong--and that is taken into account also.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Accountable. And the accountability of youth is not the same as adults, considering the youth and the adult is of sound mind.

Not all youth are capable of understanding right from wrong--and that is taken into account also.

They may not understand right from wrong but they still sin. And yet they sin and are saved without baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Just like every single person is a sinner. As I said the Bible doesn't speak about infants so anything I say is speculation.

I believe that it is possible that the Bible does speak of children:

Galatians4:1-2--"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."

But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism

The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

If you believe they are--could you share how you believe infants sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe that it is possible that the Bible does speak of children:

2 Samuel 12
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”


As I said there is an indication from this p***age that the infant who dies will go to heaven. (BTW I know the LDS position on David but that is a topic for another thread)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

What do you call a 7 year old who sins?