Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it is that simple Billyray--then repentance and baptism for the remission of sins would be a false doctrine--which the faith alone believe is, but the Biblical record teaches as the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Either you obey the commandments or you don't. If you only obey some of them then you can't say that you obey the commandments. BTW do you obey the commandments or are you a commandment breaker?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Infants are not condemned--

Billyray---If they are perfect and not condemned then they don't need the atonement of Christ. Right?

I'm really amazed at your comments. If it were not for the Atonement--then all would be condemned. Have you not read the scriptures:

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
If it is that simple Billyray--then repentance and baptism for the remission of sins would be a false doctrine--which the faith alone believe is, but the Biblical record teaches as the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Either you obey the commandments or you don't. If you only obey some of them then you can't say that you obey the commandments. BTW do you obey the commandments or are you a commandment breaker?

Could you explain for us what I do or don't do has to do with the fact that the scriptures command repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins?

Acts2;38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You seem to attempt to disqualify the scriptures based on whether I keep the commandments or not. Could you explain that connection for us?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm really amazed at your comments. If it were not for the Atonement--then all would be condemned.

If Christ did not atone for our sins then a baby would be condemned. Why would that baby be condemned? What is the reason exactly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Have you not read the scriptures:

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

I have already told you that your interpretation of this verse is wrong. Justification is by faith and ALL who are justified are IN Christ. There are two different types of justification.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Infants are not condemned--

Billyray---If they are perfect and not condemned then they don't need the atonement of Christ. Right?

dberrie---I'm really amazed at your comments. If it were not for the Atonement--then all would be condemned. Have you not read the scriptures:

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Originally Posted by Billyray

If Christ did not atone for our sins then a baby would be condemned. Why would that baby be condemned? What is the reason exactly?

I'm wondering what it is about our conversation you are missing?

In the Fall of mankind--death and hell were brought to all mankind as a condemnation. They suffered physical death and spiritual death--no matter what their faith in God was.

Jesus Christ abridged that gap from God when Adam and Eve were expelled from His presence, -the blood Atonement for the sins of the world(Adam's included), and His resurrection for physical death.

That opened the doors to eternal life for all mankind, as an opportunity, and conquered physical death through His resurrection.

That is what is commonly referred to as the Redemption of mankind. That is the reason that Jesus Christ is commonly referred to as the Redeemer, and the Savior of mankind.

That act insured all that the condemnation incurred through the Fall would have no effect on them, as far as the opportunity to inherit eternal life is concerned.

Now, all mankind are born saved, without any condemnation placed upon them due to the Fall.

Billray--your theology that all infants are sinners is a false and pernicious doctrine.

All infants are born saved--due to the work of the Savior. They are not sinners, as you maintain, and no one who understands the gospel of Jesus Christ would ever attach that label to an infant.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm wondering what it is about our conversation you are missing?

Your explanation doesn't make a lick of sense. On the one hand you say that babies are perfect. On the other hand you say that babies are condemned unless Christ atoned for them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All infants are born saved--due to the work of the Savior.

Without the sacrifice of Jesus could a baby go to heaven? Or would that baby be condemned? If so why?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Without the sacrifice of Jesus could a baby go to heaven? Or would that baby be condemned? If so why?

Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, all life on this earth would be in a condemned state for the fall of Adam. Christ atoned for the sin of Adam and so all life on earth starts with a clean slate. As a result--all men are resurrected. But judgement will only be for sins personally committed. As a new born is incapable of faith and works, a new born is also incapable of sinning and therefore, return to God in a clean state precisely because Christ paid for the sin of Adam.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, all life on this earth would be in a condemned state for the fall of Adam.

Why would a perfect baby be condemned?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why would a perfect baby be condemned?

If it wasn't for Jesus Christ, all life would be condemned. It is a result of being born in this world because of the fall of Adam. But, because of Christ, the demands of justice has been met and we are not longer condemned as a result of Adam. Therefore, we are born free from this bondage and all will be resurrected and meet God again. Judgement will then only come to those who have sinned--which a baby cannot.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death (by Adam), by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead (by Christ).

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the "free gift" referred to in the scriptures.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If it wasn't for Jesus Christ, all life would be condemned.

Including a perfect baby. So their must be something wrong with that baby that requires the atonement of Christ.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Including a perfect baby. So their must be something wrong with that baby that requires the atonement of Christ.

No--nothing wrong with the baby---it was just born into this world which is a fallen state--away from God. So, since the baby fell from God, Christ atoned so the baby could rise again to God.

Think of it like a drop of water that came from the mountains. There is nothing wrong with the water droplet as it makes its way to the sea---but it needs heat for evaporation to make it into a cloud and wind to carry it back to the mountain. The water is fine, but cannot move back uphill on its own power.

Likewise the baby is fine, but needs power outside of itself to get back where it came from.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, since the baby fell from God, Christ atoned so the baby could rise again to God.

You are not following me. If there was no atonement could a perfect baby go to heaven? If not why not?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are not following me. If there was no atonement could a perfect baby go to heaven? If not why not?

Nothing could make it back to heaven without Christ.

Think of it like a drop of water that came from the mountains. There is nothing wrong with the water droplet as it makes its way to the sea---but it needs heat for evaporation to make it into a cloud and wind to carry it back to the mountain. The water is fine, but cannot move back uphill on its own power.

Likewise the baby is fine, but needs power outside of itself to get back where it came from.

Because of Adam, all men fell. Because of Christ, all men will rise again or be resurrected and return to God who created them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nothing could make it back to heaven without Christ.

So there is something wrong with the baby that keeps him out of heaven.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So there is something wrong with the baby that keeps him out of heaven.

Billyray--are you the same person who just, not that long again back, was not sure if a baby would go to heaven or hell in the first place?

Look at my water ****ogy again and ask yourself if there is something wrong with the droplet of water that would prevent it from returning to the moutain. When you can answer that question and tell me if you believe that the water cannot return to the mountain because it has some type of flaw, we will talk.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray--are you the same person who just, not that long again back, was not sure if a baby would go to heaven or hell in the first place?

BigJ your theology and my theology are completely different, often times polar opposites. I am trying to get at YOUR theology with the baby issue. On the one hand you say that the baby is perfect in every way. Yet on the other hand that perfect baby is prevented to return to God despite his perfection UNLESS condemnation is removed from that baby. This doesn't make sense.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ your theology and my theology are completely different, often times polar opposites. I am trying to get at YOUR theology with the baby issue. On the one hand you say that the baby is perfect in every way. Yet on the other hand that perfect baby is prevented to return to God despite his perfection UNLESS condemnation is removed from that baby. This doesn't make sense.

The baby, along with all of mankind, was condemned to death. To overcome death--all mankind needed the atonement of Jesus Christ. This is why a Savior was provided from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You have ignored the question? Is water flawed because it is not capable of returning to the mountain on its own? Is the water condemned to stay always in the sea because it cannot travel back to the mountain on its own?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The baby, along with all of mankind, was condemned to death.

Why is a perfect baby prevented to return to God without the atonement? Why?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why is a perfect baby prevented to return to God without the atonement? Why?

This is a fundamental principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not understand the necessity of a Savior in the life of all mankind in providing a way for all mankind (even the perfect) to overcome death--even with my many attempts to help you--well then, you are just going to have to take that one up with God.

It appears that you think we die because of sin alone. It also appears that you believe that we can overcome death on our own. Strange concepts--neither one scriptural.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

This is a fundamental principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not understand the necessity of a Savior in the life of all mankind in providing a way for all manking (even the perfect) to overcome death--even with my many attempts to help you--well then, you are just going to have to take that one up with God.

The problem is that you are wrong. That is why you are having such a hard time answering me. If the baby is absolutely perfect without flaw then there is not a need for an atonement for that baby. However we are told in Romans that we all sin, but you reject this concept.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The problem is that you are wrong. That is why you are having such a hard time answering me. If the baby is absolutely perfect without flaw then there is not a need for an atonement for that baby. However we are told that we all sin in Romans, but you reject this concept.

No, I am not wrong. Please name the sin of the new born baby. Paul was either referring to those who are converts (which looking at the verse beforehand, he was speaking to the faithful---thus, old enough to have sinnned or he is referring to the fall and thus we are all in a fallen state, but he is not saying that a new born baby has sinned.

Please, name the sin of the newborn child? Name any one sin you think they have committed?

P.S. I am not having a hard time answering you, but you clearly are having a hard time understanding the concept of both Christ overcoming the fall for all mankind OR why an atonement was needed for all mankind, even sinless babies.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I am not wrong. .

Sure you are you just don't know it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Please, name the sin of the newborn child?

I have no idea what sin they have committed but I know that the Bible says that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God and that we all need the atonement in order to be saved.