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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #26
    Decalogue
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    Hey Mormon defenders : Be advised that the burden of proof is in your court ( to borrow a term from Tennis ) .

    It is Y O U and the President/Prophet of the L.D.S. mega system that HAS to prove that YOUR self-proclaimed Prophet and his Deputy ( Brigham Young ) have any Biblical scripture p***ages which support and prove that all Christianity is wrong and that only you , the followers of Joseph Smith have any hope.

    Jill posted the information for you to read ... words from the L.D.S. prophet/President Brigham Young. Brigham taught that Mary got pregnant by a VERY different way than what the Bible tells us.

    It is up to you now , to decide whether you will bow the knee to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords and put your faith and trust in Him , oorrrr spend forever in a very hot and miserable place because you blindly accept the lies of a scam-artist and his crooked family in 1830's New York.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decalogue View Post
    --Jill posted the information for you to read ... words from the L.D.S. prophet/President Brigham Young. Brigham taught that Mary got pregnant by a VERY different way than what the Bible tells us.
    Jill's comments that Jesus Christ's father was the Holy Ghost is foreign to the Biblical text.

    The Bible makes this claim--that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. He never makes the claim that the Holy Ghost was His Father.

    If you or anyone else on this forum has a Biblical p***age where Jesus Christ makes any claim that God the Father really isn't His father--or where the Holy Ghost is His father--then please print it.

    St John20:17-"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

  3. #28
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father
    Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?
    An interesting note Billyray---the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew. To say that Jesus was the "only" Son of God the Father and not to put in the "begotten" would mean that Jesus was no different from the other sons of God.

    So, we do not know the details of how he is the "begotten" Son of God the Father, just that Mary was overcome by the Holy Ghost--but we do know that Jesus was not just a son of God as was Adam or any of God's children, but that Mary was Christ's mother and God the Father, his father. To me, that means that 23 chromosomes came from Mary and 23 chromosomes are God the Father's. How that happened, exactly---I don't know. What I do know is that God the Father is Christ's father.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 11-09-2011 at 09:01 AM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  5. #30
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    An interesting note Billyray---the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew. To say that Jesus was the "only" Son of God the Father and not to put in the "begotten" would mean that Jesus was no different from the other sons of God.
    But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?
    Disagree.

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    .
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    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  7. #32
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Disagree.

    .
    "Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

  8. #33
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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.

  9. #34
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?

  10. #35
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
    One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

    We have earthly fathers for that.

    If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

    The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.
    How did you come to this conclusion?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How did you come to this conclusion?
    I think we need to clarify "begotten" Son or what it means.

    Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  13. #38
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ?
    I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.

  14. #39
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.

    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
    One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

    We have earthly fathers for that.

    If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

    The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How did you come to this conclusion?
    What conclusion are you referring to?

  15. #40
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?
    We aren't given the details of this but God could create an embryo via his word.

  16. #41
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    what conclusion are you referring to?
    The one bolded in your post below.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    one point here--god the father did not impregnate the spirit, which he is the father of--he impregnated the physical body--which god was not the father of.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.
    Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.
    Okay, so to you, he is not the "begotten" Son of the Father, but just have this type of relationship.

    So, you still didn't answer my question:

    Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?

    Where did Christ get his extra 23 chromosomes from Billyray? How is Christ different physically from Adam?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We aren't given the details of this but God could create an embryo via his word.
    But, then how is Christ different from Adam? Are both bodies just physical creations of God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #45
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.
    Would it surprise you to learn that I've had many mainstream christians tell me that the Father/Son role is more ***le than actual relationship. They said there is not Father/Son relationship but Father is a ***le of heirarchy only.

  21. #46
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
    ESV Study Bible
    ". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    ESV Study Bible
    ". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."
    So, to you, when you read that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotton of the Father--your response seems to be "but not really."

    So, then why did Mary need to be overcome by the Holy Ghost--why not just produce a body the way Adam was produced or just the regular way a baby was produced and then implant in that body the spirit of God? And then why say "the only begotten" if it really wasn't the "begotten" Son of God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #48
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Okay, so to you, he is not the "begotten" Son of the Father, but just have this type of relationship.
    Yes that they were always in Father Son relationship. Even you believe this prior to Christ's incarnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, you still didn't answer my question:

    Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?

    Where did Christ get his extra 23 chromosomes from Billyray? How is Christ different physically from Adam?
    Actually I answered it here
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We aren't given the details of this but God could create an embryo via his word.
    God can create by simply speaking it into existence. We aren't given any details such my answer is simply my opinion but God could have created an embryo without using any of Mary's chromosomes.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Yes that they were always in Father Son relationship. Even you believe this prior to Christ's incarnation.


    Actually I answered it here

    God can create by simply speaking it into existence. We aren't given any details such my answer is simply my opinion but God could have created an embryo without using any of Mary's chromosomes.
    So, to you, when you read that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotton of the Father--your response seems to be "but not really."

    So, then why did Mary need to be overcome by the Holy Ghost--why not just produce a body the way Adam was produced or just the regular way a baby was produced and then implant in that body the spirit of God? And then why say "the only begotten" if it really wasn't the "begotten" Son of God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #50
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
    dberrie----One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

    We have earthly fathers for that.

    If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

    The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How did you come to this conclusion?
    dberrie---What conclusion are you referring to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The one bolded in your post below.

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    one point here--god the father did not impregnate the spirit, which he is the father of--he impregnated the physical body--which god was not the father of.
    Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.

    To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.

    What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?

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