Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct. We are all condemned.

No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.

Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

Your confusing mortal man's personal choices with the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

The faith of mortal mankind had nothing to do with the consequences of the Fall. Those consequences of the Fall came upon all men regardless of man's faith.

That is why it took Jesus Christ and His Atonement to overcome death and hell. Man could not do it.

Because of the Atonement--all men can come unto Christ and be saved--through faith in Christ.

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

The condemnation is taken away through Christ's Atonement, and had nothing to do with man's faith. Christ alone.

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

That "one' is Jesus Christ--and none other.

Eternal life is given to those who receive of His grace through faith in Christ.(obedience to Him)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

And those who place their faith in Christ will be justified and those who don't won't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Those who place their faith in Christ will be justified.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

Originally Posted by Billyray

If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

You are trying to stuff your personal theology on the scriptures that state no such thing.

Again--what are you missing in this scripture?

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

You have a dog in the fight--your theology demands that this Atonement be only for a few--the elect--and so the editing begins. Add whatever is necessary for the scriptures to conform to your theology--cover and cancel those that do not fit--reinterpret those which contradict....

If one would notice--the scripture in Romans5:18 has a context--here it is:

It compares two things: 1) The condemnation of ALL MEN due to the Fall. 2) The free gift to ALL MEN due to the Atonement.

Notice any similarities there? ALL MEN. We know that all men were condemned due to the Fall--but Billyray has to alter that on the other side of the equation, because it does not conform to his theology.

So much for the edit programmers.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

So the definition of justification is?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the definition of justification is?

It means the demands of justice have been met.

In the verse you gave above, it means the demands have been met in regards to the fall of Adam with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Spelled out step by step;

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(the offense of Adam meant that all men die)

even so by the righteousness of one
(the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ)

the free gift (something that Christ did not have to do)

came upon all men (everyone who dies because of the Fall of Adam)

unto the justification of life
(the demands of justice have been met and therefore the penalty of death is now undone and life returns.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It means the demands of justice have been met.

So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

What? See above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by bigjulie

what? See above.

. . .
. . .

Originally Posted by billyray

so if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of god because of christ's sacrifice.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

It means resurrection from being dead. The penalty of the fall of Adam is death--therefore, as the penalty for Adam's sin was paid for by Christ---justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. Because the penalty was paid, now we are judged "according to our own sins and not Adam's transgression." Which means if you suffer the second death, it has nothing to do with Adam, but your own sins.

[Billyray]

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G1347&t=KJV

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G1347&t=KJV

Here is your commentary again. Looking at your above definition, a baby would not then be held "guilty" for Adam's transgression but would be "free from guilt and acceptable to him." In other words---the penalty of death that they pay (through no fault of their own) is removed--which would be the only just and fair thing to do. Now as that child grows and sins, they are held accountable for their own sins alone--as the sin of Adam has been justified by Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

--justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. .

So the individual is not justified.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is your commentary again.

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?

See above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

See above.

Is that a yes or a no?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the individual is not justified.

What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since---which if you read---the Bible if full of legal terms.

And I don't even know what "abjuring" means and when I looked it up, it doesn't fit---so no---I don't agree with the Blue Letter Bible completely on this one. ---Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since-

If a person is justified is that person innocent or guilty?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?

How about a standard Dictionary definition from Merriam

Definition of JUSTIFICATION
1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justification