Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which was in the garden.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

So, when God told Adam not to eat of the tree, was that a law or not? When Abel made a sacrifice to God that was acceptable..was that a law or not? When Cain made a sacrifice that was unacceptable, was he held accountable or not? What about when Cain murdered Abel? Did he realize that went against God or not? What about when Abraham was circumcized? Was that something that was a law to Abraham or not? Shall I go on?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, it is scriptural--just read the OT

OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

Oh, boy--you need to read the first five books of the OT and see what these men were up too. Abraham was paying ***hes, making sacrifices, giving burnt offerings, getting circumcized, having heavenly visitors, etc.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell, not when God gave the ten commandments to Moses.

Paul's teachings here are very deep and speak on many levels. I am not surprised you don't understand him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Abraham was paying ***hes,

Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham. You guys in here just continually slam him. Let's see, God gave Abraham his name which means in Hebrew "exalted father." You decide how much you want to rip on Abraham and giving his ***hes to Melchizedek which means "righteous king."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell

When you break a commandment you sin. You don't have to have knowledge of the commandment to sin but it is sin nonetheless. Just like a child who takes a candy bar. That is a sin and it is breaking the law even though the young child may not know that it is wrong. Now accountability is a separate issue.

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham.

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you break a commandment you sin. You don't have to have knowledge of the commandment to sin but it is sin nonetheless. Just like a child who takes a candy bar. That is a sin and it is breaking the law even though the young child may not know that it is wrong. Now accountability is a separate issue.

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, what are you saying---because you did not personally eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and for those who don't even know about it---there is no penalty? They don't die? Or, are you saying that those who do not know about right and wrong are not held accountable for that? Yes, I agree---which is why I don't believe the majority of the world is going to hell as you do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham. You guys in here just continually slam him.

He was justified by faith.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Yes, to all the above. The priesthood means that one has the authorityto act in God's name here on earth. Certainly, you can see that Noah did as he built the ark and through him the life on the planet was saved. Abraham certainly did as he was the one given the promise that it would be through him that world would be blessed. So, when Abraham gave a blessing to Isaac---was that blessing "authoritative"---did God act on it? etc.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

He was justified by faith.

So, were his ***hes justified through faith? Did the "exalted father" gives ***hes to the "righteous king" or was this just stolen goods as you say?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Or, are you saying that those who do not know about right and wrong are not held accountable for that?

God has laws and they did not know all of these laws but when a person breaks those laws it is still sin. Likewise a young child who steals a candy bar is breaking the law and committing a sin against God but because he doesn't know better he is not accountable. So this takes us back to the question about young children who sin but (in my opinion) they will not go to hell because they are not accountable because they don't know better.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God has laws and they did not know all of these laws but when a person breaks those laws it is still sin. Likewise a young child who steals a candy bar is breaking the law and committing a sin against God but because he doesn't know better he is not accountable.

Okay. So, are we held accountable for the sin of Adam even though we did not eat of the tree and do we die as promised to Adam for eating the fruit? Or has that breaking of the law been justified?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, are we held accountable for the sin of Adam even though we did not eat of the tree

ESV Study Bible

Rom. 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Mosaic law was ins***uted, but it was not technically reckoned as sin before the time of the law. Paul does not mean that people were guiltless without the law, for he has already said in 2:12 that those without the written law are still judged by God (e.g., those who perished in the flood [Genesis 6–9] and those who were judged at the tower of Babel [Gen. 11:1–9]). Since people still died, this shows that they were guilty—as a consequence of Adam’s sin but possibly also as a consequence of having transgressed the universal moral law in their consciences before the written Mosaic law was given.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, to all the above.

Can you give me a reference in the Bible that would confirm that these guys held the Melchizedek priesthood or the "Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God".

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you give me a reference in the Bible that would confirm that these guys held the Melchizedek priesthood or the "Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God".

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Aaronic prieshood is a Mormon term. But you can certainly read about the Levitical priests. Start with Leviticus which goes over in detail the role of the priests.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Aaronic prieshood is a Mormon term. But you can certainly read about the Levitical priests. Start with Leviticus which goes over in detail the role of the priests.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?

Can you answer my question now?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you even give a reference to the exact term "Aaronic Priesthood" in the OT?

Dberrie---Billyray is trying to make the point that there was no law before Moses (so that his reading of Romans 5 works for him) by attempting to show that there was no priesthood before Moses.

This notion is patently absurd as the priesthood, by definition, means that one can act for and in behalf of God. This "holy order" is the order in which God does things. We both understand that.

What Billyray needs to prove then, is that no one acted in behalf of God prior to Moses. We can see that this is not the case. Obviously, Noah acted in behalf of God when he built the ark. Obviously, when Abraham gave a blessing to Isaac (and not to Esau), it was authoritative as the birthright went to Isaac and not Esau even though Esau was the first born child. We can also see that Jacob gave an authoritative blessing to his sons--one of whom was Judah and in which we can see, Christ did come from that line.

So, this notion that there was no law before Moses and no priesthood before Moses is absurd to say the least. Billyray does not believe it because it isn't spelled out clearly enough for him, but anyone who is reading the OT can clearly see that the priesthood was in effect in the OT, if for no other reason, Abraham gave ***hes to Melchezedic. Obviously, in order for Abraham (whom God calls "exalted father") gave ***hes to Melchezedic (which means righteous king), a priesthood was in effect. Also, if Abel was making righteous sacrifices to the Lord, the priesthood was in effect.

But, we can learn from Moses, that the law that was given to him was not the same law that was given to his fathers--as is clearly told to Moses and he clearly tells to the Israelites. Hence, the Levitical Priesthood was not the same law, but there was a law before (and a priesthood before), this is obvious. So, the question for Billyray is --what was that law or what was that priesthood since CLEARLY the "fathers" of Moses were under it and Moses understands this clearly as he is the one to explain that it is a new covenant that they are under and not the covenant that was "cut" with their fathers.

[BigJulie]

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God

Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie---Billyray is trying to make the point that there was no law before Moses (so that his reading of Romans 5 works for him) by attempting to show that there was no priesthood before Moses.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

You believe that they were under the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses, which would include baptism, laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Melchizedek priesthood and all the other ordinances. Where do you find all of these things pre Moses?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 14:18 ¶ And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God

Hbr 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.

Abraham gave Melchizedek 10% of recovered stolen property and gave the remaining 90% to their rightful owners. This is hardly a model for ***hing. Melchizedek is never ever given the commandment to ***he and you never ever see him pay ***hes on any of his increase.