Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

i have successfully found that there is an antidote to such foolishness....

:d ..
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I will go look at the "hot topics" and see what you have to say. I enjoy what your posts.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yup. I'm now figuring that out. When he starts his circling patterns--that means he has been cornered.

Not at all DB. You guys believe something that is not in the Bible. It is up to you to prove it. You believe that pre Moses they lived under the law of the gospel which includes: baptism, laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost, Melchizedek priesthood, temple ordinances. These thing were not present pre Moses. It you think that I am wrong simply show me where they are taught in the OT pre Moses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case

I repeat questions because you will not answer my question.

Do you believe that pre Moses they:

1. Were baptized

2. Had laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost

3. Temple ordinances

4. Melchizedek priesthood from Adam through Moses

[Billyray]

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

If they were under the law of the gospel then why the statement "sin is not imputed when there is no law"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Such as his obsession with what ordinances Abraham had--as if that made one hill of potatoes difference. He was wrong, and got burned.

I got burned? I must have missed that post. What ordinances were required of Abraham? Can you give me a list?

[Billyray]

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Adam to Moses lived they lived under the fulness of the gospel correct?

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. Can you show us where we can find these pre Moses?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

:d ..
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I will go look at the "hot topics" and see what you have to say. I enjoy what your posts.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=2541

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

Abraham did not live under the law of the gospel as you propose above. Why do you persist in saying that he did?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

***us 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

Abraham did not live under the law of the gospel as you propose above.

What's your evidence of that? It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period. BTW--I have not made any claims other than Abraham lived under the gospel.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)

The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Faith does not save one. Works does not save one.

The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?

it is not that it is devoid but rather that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Therefore, the ten commandments is actually clearly defined as a law different from the law given before meaning that what Moses received was something new compared to what Adam, Noah, Enoch, or Abraham received.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.


What was new? Weren't these commandments required by those prior to Moses?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.


What was new? Weren't these commandments required by those prior to Moses?

Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted by Billyray

it is not that it is devoid but rather that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)

The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

Originally Posted by Billyray

The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

His grace for our obedience(faith in Christ) is a theology that states we are not saved by faith, nor any obedience. We are saved by His grace. And that grace goes to those who obey Christ.(faith in Christ).

This is the same argument you make about repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

Your claim is that water baptism does not wash away sins. I agree. But the scriptures plainly teach that obedience to Christ by repenting and being water baptized is for the remission of sins--God granting His grace to those who obey Him.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is it about repentance and water baptism that you do not consider obedience to Jesus Christ, and what is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider the grace of Jesus Christ?

The LDS consider it just what it states--His grace for our obedience to Him. The LDS do not consider repentance nor the water that saves--only what is commanded for His grace unto the remission of sins.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us and that it is not because of our works? Why do you think you can simply ignore these verses?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

Because your theology does not allow you to understand it. And anyone who believes there is not any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto salvation has to play ******** to what is plainly taught in the scriptures.

What is it about the LDS believe they are saved by grace we are not understanding?

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

New or otherwise--please show us the specific commandments that Abraham obeyed, and specifically listed as all the commandments, prior to Moses.

That is the game you are playing, Billyray. So, let's play it.

The fact of the matter is--you cannot back up that request, because although there is the reference to the commandments, laws, and statutes--there is not the first word detailing exactly what they were.

Your diversion of trying to show that the scriptural claim that Abraham lived under the gospel is not the same gospel as defined by the LDS because the LDS can't go back and show every commandment or statue or law becomes a double-edged sword to you also.

The fact is--Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ, and all your diversion cannot change that, nor prove what commandments, statutes, or laws, specifically speaking, that Abraham lived under. Genesis covers millenniums, and only a precious few pages.

With that said--Romans4, when speaking of works and Abraham--differentiated the Mosaic Law from the gospel of Christ--not all works in general, for the scriptures state that Abraham was given the promises due to his obedience.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us

I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


What is the basis of our salvation? And what role does works play according to the above verses?