Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

Originally Posted by Billyray

And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

That does not mean we are saved by faith or works. Only that faith and works are necessary for what does save one, and are integral components one to another. His grace is what saves.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?

Exaltation is based on faith and works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

It does not matter what I think. Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Trying to disprove that due to the fact the Bible does not elaborate on all the commandments, laws, and ordinances that were given to Abraham is a losing argument.

To make my point--please prove exactly what laws, ordinances, and commandments Abraham was given. Billyray--you can't do it.

Your only defense is that all those commandments, laws, and ordinances are not spelled out in the Bible.

Bingo! Which means we just know that Abraham lived under the gospel., and that involved laws, ordinances, and commandments.

Which, if true, then that means that Abraham received of God's grace due to the fact that he obeyed His laws, ordinances, and commandments--rendering, once again--the faith that is alone for salvation false:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That's it. Billyray. That is what we do have--and trying to take the road of diversion in accordance with we do not have will not make your case. It's only the fantasy of the faith alone.

But then, I understand your attempt to do so. It's all you have--relying on something that we don't have.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.

There is also nothing in the scriptures that state that faith is independent of our obedience to Jesus Christ. Even you have stated that:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works.

Grace is what is required for salvation.

Faith, as in obedience to Jesus Christ, is what is required for His grace.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

Faith without works is dead.

Billyray, once you give up the notion that it is your faith that saves you, then it makes perfect sense that it is not works that saves you either.

So, as you state you understand--it is God's grace and God's grace alone that saves you.

So, what does God tell us regarding who he gives his grace to? He says the faithful. But we know--faith without works is dead. So, those who say they have faith but then ignore what God tells them to do are lying. How can you say you believe someone and ignore what they tell you to do? You wouldn't.

So, what does the person do who wants to be saved? They believe and THAT means they do. So, one cannot say they have faith and not do--not possible. And that is why your trying to split hairs between faith and works is just not possible. As I said before show me the man who says he believes and then will not do and I will show you a liar.

[BigJulie]

Mat 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Billyray, why does the one who does the will of his father, even though he said no, do better than the one who said he would and then didn't?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Faith without works is dead.

Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.

You never answered me Billyray, would Christ have saved the thief he hung on the cross next to Christ and did nothing?

And, you have noted that a baby is not capable of having faith and yet you state you believe they are saved. Why do you believe and infant who died young would be saved if they have no faith if you think it is faith that saves?

P.S. I am not sure why on one hand you acknowledge that grace saves, but then keep repeating that it is faith that saves (see your bolded line above)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

Yes, but do you see that the above verses directly tie "believing him" with doing the will of the Father?

31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, the publicans and the harlots, as Christ defines belief--did the will of the Father. First off---repentence. Does repentence require that you do anything? Yes or no?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.




Barnes' Notes on the Bible



By the washing of regeneration - In order to a correct understanding of this important p***age, it is necessary to ascertain whether the phrase here used refers to baptism, and whether anything different is intended by it from what is meant by the succeeding phrase - "renewing of the Holy Ghost." - The word rendered "washing" (λουτρόυ loutrou) occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in Ephesians 5:26, where also it is rendered "washing" - "That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word." The word properly means "a bath;" then water for bathing; then the act of bathing, washing, ablution. P***ow and Robinson. It is used by Homer to denote a warm or cold bath; then a washing away, and is thus applied to the drink-offerings in sacrifice, which were supposed to purify or wash away sin. P***ow. The word here does not mean "laver," or the vessel for washing in, which would be expressed by λουτὴρ loutēr and this word cannot be properly applied to the baptismal font.

[B]The word in itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (compare notes at Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them. I say it was the emblem, not the means of purifying the soul from sin.

The "wasing of regeneration" is commonly thought to refer to water baptism.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God is what saves, not faith or works.

Can you be saved by grace without faith AND works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.

The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

Exaltation is a subset of salvation. I notice you like to do this---you like to speak of what it is takes to be saved and then when we discuss it, you switch it to exaltation.

So, which is it---do you believe the thief is exalted or saved or both. Why?

[BigJulie]

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

Paul is clarifying to ***us that it God's mercy that saves us---which by we are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost (a work)....and yet it is God's mercy that saves. So, Paul makes it clear that it is God who saves us and thereby, we can be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What does it say in ***us about works?

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.