Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.

Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

I have no argument with this. God saves...not faith, not works...God alone. But it is through God that we can have faith and thereby do the works of God, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

Amazing you can ignore the whole rest of this verse---which states that we are saved by the mercy of God and then refers back to our works.

I agree that it is not our works that save us. I also agree that it is not our faith that saves us--but as this verse states, we are saved by the mercy of God. And then, it goes on to discuss faith and works as applied by the mercy of God or that it is by his mercy that our sins are cleansed through baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I agree that it is not our works that save us.

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.

Originally Posted by Billyray

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.

What is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace for our obedience?

What does it say in ***us about works?

It states we are not saved by works, to which the LDS agree. But when we obey, we do receive God's grace, which does save, and the only thing that can save.

That is your onus, Billyray. To show where those who obey God do not receive of His grace.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

The LDS do not believe there is any eternal life without obedience to Christ., anymore than you believe there is no eternal life without faith.

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

No matter how you try to maintain that faith saves one.

BTW--what saves us in your theology--faith or His grace?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.

So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

And this is where the problem lies Billyray as you suspend your own logic and even what we are saying to continue in your own dialogue of what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say, the verses we show you, the verses you show us that we show you do not say what you think they do and then, you call me a liar when your fail to make your point over and over again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

No.

So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

Depends on what justification you are referring to--in the case of receiving the justification of all men in the Atonement--no. That was a free gift and all men have it, no faith or works required.

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say

I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Depends on what justification you are referring to-

There are not multiple types of justification in that you do err.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

You forget that Mormonism teaches us that it is by grace we are saved.

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we believe. *sigh*

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

Yes. That has never been argued by me. It's just not what saves one--obedience to Christ is the reason God extends His grace--through faith, which includes obedience to Christ.

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

That is likened unto me asking you if you believed faith was required for eternal life.


The only connection left to answer now is--does faith have obedience to Christ as it's integral component?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Repentance and water baptism is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?