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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #51
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
    Quote:
    dberrie----One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

    We have earthly fathers for that.

    If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

    The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How did you come to this conclusion?
    Quote:
    dberrie---What conclusion are you referring to?
    quote=Billyray;101703The one bolded in your post below.

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    one point here--god the father did not impregnate the spirit, which he is the father of--he impregnated the physical body--which god was not the father of.quote]

    Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.

    To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.

    What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?
    DB your posts are so messy it is hard to tell who is speaking. Why don't you clean them up a little bit before you make any further complaints.

  2. #52
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    ESV Study Bible
    ". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."
    Personal commentaries do not supplant the scriptures--what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with--as it relates to "this day have I begotten thee?"

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.
    You didn't answer the question. Why do you say that god the father did not impregnate the spirit?

  4. #54
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with
    That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?

  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Billy--one point here before we get started. Your reproduction of my quote is not an exact quote. Please make my posts the exact reproduction. Your rudeness of using lower case to denote the word "God" should not be contracted to my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    DB your posts are so messy it is hard to tell who is speaking. Why don't you clean them up a little bit before you make any further complaints.
    No matter how messy you deem my posts--that is no excuse for posting changes in the reproduction of my posts--period.

  6. #56
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    dberrie---To your point--there are no pregnant spirits that return to God. That happens in the physical realm--the mortal body. Mortality producing mortality.

    What is your evidence of pregnant spirits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You didn't answer the question. Why do you say that god the father did not impregnate the spirit?
    What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? Since the spirit leaves the body upon death, and returns to God--then there must be are two separate en***ies.

    We know that the physical mortal body bears the mortal child. All of those who have reached the adult age understands that. What evidence do you have that the spirit is impregnated?

    Are you saying that if one dies in pregnancy--then a pregnant spirit returns to God?

  7. #57
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No matter how messy you deem my posts--that is no excuse for posting changes in the reproduction of my posts--period.
    Half the time I don't know who you are even quoting then you go back and fix it after I have already quoted it.

  8. #58
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? . . We know that the physical mortal body bears the mortal child.
    Again you didn't answer my question. Is the father mortal or immortal?

  9. #59
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    What evidence do you have that the spirit is impregnated?
    "Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?
    Jesus Christ was a Son before He came to earth--in the Spirit--as we all are as spirits.

    That Jesus confirmed:

    St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

    God the Father is the Father and God of spirits.

    That Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten" Son is reference to the earthly fleshly child of His mother Mary and His Father God the Father.

    He was the only One ever born to this earth that had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father.

    That distinguishes Jesus Christ as the "Only Begotten". If the disciples shared the same God and Father as Jesus Christ did--that is not a unique situation, and applies only to the spirit. The "Only Begotten" applies only to the flesh.

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    dberrie---What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? Since the spirit leaves the body upon death, and returns to God--then there must be are two separate en***ies.

    We know that the [B]physical mortal body [/B]bears the mortal child. All of those who have reached the adult age understands that. What evidence do you have that the spirit is impregnated?

    Are you saying that if one dies in pregnancy--then a pregnant spirit returns to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    "Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
    And just how do you relate this to the physical mortal body, and the spirit therein? How does this confirm that the spirit of the mortal body is impregnated?

    How does even the immortal body being impregnated mean that the spirit is impregnated? You are printing that the spirit was begotten by heavenly parents--not that the spirit was impregnated.

  12. #62
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What is it about mortality reproducing mortality we are not getting? . . We know that the physical mortal body bears the mortal child.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Again you didn't answer my question. Is the father mortal or immortal?
    What father are you referring to? The one who impregnated the mortal Mary was immortal--that is the reason Christ possessed mortality and immortality, and hence--the "Only Begotten".

    All other fathers are mortals, here in the mortal realm.

    But ALL mothers have been mortals, and there is no record of their spirits being impregnated. Mary's mortal, physical body carried the Baby--the impregnation happened there.

    Billy--give it up. Your point has been lost.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 11-09-2011 at 01:09 PM.

  13. #63
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    I am just still trying to figure out who Billyray thinks Jesus Christ's father was since he seems to think the term "begotten" is spoken more in poetic terms rather than concrete terms. As we know that Christ had a human body--I am wondering if half of his chromosomes were the virgin Mary's (his mother), then where exactly did he get the other 23?...and if they were just "created" by God, then how would Christ be any different from Adam---also a creation of God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #64
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Jesus Christ was a Son before He came to earth--in the Spirit--as we all are as spirits.
    Of course he was. But I was addressing your comment below.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    what is it about "shall be to me a Son" being future tense that you do not agree with
    That he was a Son eternally not that he was NOT a son then became a son at a certain point in time. Is that what you believe that Jesus was not a son prior to being impregnated/born?

  15. #65
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I am just still trying to figure out who Billyray thinks Jesus Christ's father was since he seems to think the term "begotten" is spoken more in poetic terms rather than concrete terms. As we know that Christ had a human body--I am wondering if half of his chromosomes were the virgin Mary's (his mother), then where exactly did he get the other 23?...and if they were just "created" by God, then how would Christ be any different from Adam---also a creation of God?
    What part didn't you understand about my answer?

  16. #66
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You are printing that the spirit was begotten by heavenly parents--not that the spirit was impregnated.
    Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

    The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What part didn't you understand about my answer?
    All of it---to me, you are just basically saying that the body of Christ is just like any other body that God created such as Adam. Therefore, to you, Christ is not the begotton Son of the Father, but the term begotton only is used in a poetic term such as calling a dear friend an uncle even though there is no real relationship. Is this correct?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

    The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
    Billyray--to recap our discussion--you trying to connect Mary's impregnation to incest.

    Again--how are you tying the begetting of spirits to the impregnation of Mary's spirit, instead of her mortal body? This is where our discussion began:


    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

    The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

    Unique.

    Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?
    dberrie---One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

    We have earthly fathers for that.

    If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

    The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.

  19. #69
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Billyray--to recap our discussion--you trying to connect Mary's impregnation to incest.
    Isn't that true from the LDS point of view?

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Again--how are you tying the begetting of spirits to the impregnation of Mary's spirit, instead of her mortal body?
    I am asking specifically about this quote.

    Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

    The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am asking specifically about this quote.

    Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

    The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
    It means that our spirits are made up of the spiritual matter of God.

    Likewise, we believe that our begotten bodies are made up of the physical matter of our parents (their DNA).

    In that light, I asked you your definition of begotten and stated in trying to understand your definition as explained by you:

    "you are just basically saying that the body of Christ is just like any other "body that God created such as Adam. Therefore, to you, Christ is not the begotton Son of the Father, but the term begotton only is used in a poetic term such as calling a dear friend an uncle even though there is no real relationship. Is this correct?"

    Once again, is this correct?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #72
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It means that our spirits are made up of the spiritual matter of God.
    So the spirits were begotten and born through a procreative act just like Jesus was begotten and born?

  23. #73
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Therefore, to you, Christ is not the begotton Son of the Father, but the term begotton only is used in a poetic term such as calling a dear friend an uncle even though there is no real relationship. Is this correct?"
    We are not told the exact mechanism, but I don't believe that the Father came down and had sex with Mary like I used to believe when I was LDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So the spirits were begotten and born through a procreative act just like Jesus was begotten and born?
    You are ignoring my question and making ***umptions that I did not state. We don't know how Mary was impregnated, only that she was overcome by the Holy Ghost and was impregnanted as she did become pregnant (or do you disagree with that?)

    That said---you are ignoring my question. Did I have it correct in my descripion regarding what it means to you for Christ to be the "only begotten" of the Father?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We are not told the exact mechanism, but I don't believe that the Father came down and had sex with Mary like I used to believe when I was LDS.

    Okay--so this has gone from what it means to be begotten to your accusations regarding how Mary became impregnated. Well---to me, it just doesn't matter. I don't see sex as an evil or wicked thing especially in light of the fact that God created man and woman in His image and marriage is ordained of God and having children (procreation) is one of the most Godlike things we do.

    That said, you are ignoring what you think it means that Christ is the begotten of the Father. Do you believe the term "begotten" does not mean what it means in every other case when it is used in the Bible? Are you changing the definition of "begotten" to suit your faith?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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