Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Jill View Post
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

dberrie---Are you using "Christian" in terms of "orthodox Christianity" or Biblical Christianity?

Originally Posted by Jill

dberrie,---More than 2000 years of Christian history shows that the iden***y of Jesus is the same as it was during the time he walked this earth. That is biblical and historical truth. Christianity never disappeared from the earth; Joseph Smith Jr. just decided to redefine it.

There is little resemblance between the faith alone doctrines of salvation and the Biblical NT doctrines of salvation. Precious little.

The "orthodox Christianity" of today bears little resemblance to the Biblical Christianity of the NT. Not even close.

And any denomination teaching that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not connected to Biblical Christianity.

The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is little resemblance between the faith alone doctrines of salvation and the Biblical NT doctrines of salvation. Precious little.

The "orthodox Christianity" of today bears little resemblance to the Biblical Christianity of the NT. Not even close.

And any denomination teaching that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not connected to Biblical Christianity.

The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

db: CFR NOW! Mormonism can't even match its doctrines to John 3:16, Psalm 90:2. I find your post is deceiving.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

Really? Why don't we start with the biblical nature of Jesus--about as close to salvation as you can get. Exactly how was Jesus conceived?

Historic Christianity: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

Mormonism: Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Journal of Discourses 1:50,51, Brigham Young – "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary . . . .When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost . . . . Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS can match their core salvational doctrines with the Biblical text.

Originally Posted by Jill

Really? Why don't we start with the biblical nature of Jesus--about as close to salvation as you can get. Exactly how was Jesus conceived?

Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.

Historic Christianity: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

Mormonism: Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Journal of Discourses 1:50,51, Brigham Young – "The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary . . . .When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost . . . . Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."

John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.



John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?

Exactly. If the Holy Ghost conceived Jesus, then the HG is the Father. However we know that the Father is the father, so it makes perfect sense to understand the verse as meaning Mary was conceived through the power of the HG, not that Mary actually conceived from the HG.

But in any case, we do not know the details.

And like dberrie said, this is yet just another one of the points on the christian litmus test as to what one must believe in order to be saved. So much for belief in Jesus only.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Nobody knows exactly how Jesus was conceived--only that God the Father was His God and His Father.

And since when is knowing every detail of Jesus's conception a salvational doctrine?

Jesus never claimed the Holy Ghost as His Father.



John1:And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Where do you find it that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten of the Holy Ghost?

Do you believe that God the Father and the Holy Ghost is the same being?

The Bible tells us exactly how Jesus was conceived:

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

"The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God’" Luke 1:35

The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.

Jesus claimed "I and my father are one." John 10:30. They were one as the Holy Spirit was one with them. He claimed the Holy Spirit as his father in this verse. To deny that is to deny the historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity:

"There is one God (Matt. 4:10; 16:16; 22:32,37). The Father is God (6:6,9,14–15; 10:32–33; 11:25), Jesus is God (1:23; 9:6; 11:27; 12:8; 16:27; 19:28; 25:31; 26:64), and the Holy Spirit is God (1:18,20; 10:20; 12:18,28,32). Within the unity of the one God are three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (28:19). All three persons of the Trinity, moreover, were present (and distinct from each other) at Jesus’ baptism (3:16–17). In view of this, it makes good sense that Jesus, before ascending into heaven, would instruct the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for each played a pivotal role in human salvation." R. Rhodes, Is Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Mormonism: "Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."--Journal of Discourses 1:51, Brigham Young

And this is a key reason why Mitt Romney is NOT a Christian.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Jill

The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.

Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.

[Apologette]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;101614]

Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Apologette;116853]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

So, do you know what the word "only" means in Hebrew? (No, it doesn't give Mormons a problem at all---but it should give you a problem )

Here is an example:

Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Was Isaac, Abraham's ONLY son?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Jill

The Bible tells us exactly how Jesus was conceived:

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

"The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God’" Luke 1:35

The iden***y, the nature, the very being of the Savior has been defended by the Christian Church throughout history. Ever read about Arian heresy? Ever explore the Church and the history of the Gnostics? How about Docetism? Donatism? Sabellianism? The iden***y of Jesus has always been considered by the Church to be a key salvational doctrine worth defending and worth charging people and convicting them of heresy if they tried to change it.

And how does all this change the fact that Jesus Christ never claimed but One who was His Father--and that was God the Father?

And this Jesus maintained throughout His earthly ministry--and following His death and resurrection.

Jesus Christ claimed God the Father as His God and His Father--what about that we are not understanding?

St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

So--if you claim that the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Father--is your claim that the Holy Ghost and God the Father are the same being? Or that the scriptures are wrong?

Jesus claimed "I and my father are one." John 10:30. They were one as the Holy Spirit was one with them. He claimed the Holy Spirit as his father in this verse.

Where in that verse do you find that the Holy Ghost was Jesus' Father? If being "one" with the Father is the cause of the Holy Ghost being the father--then was the Holy Ghost the father of the disciples also?:

St John17:11--"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

St John17:21-22--"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

To deny that is to deny the historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity:

"There is one God (Matt. 4:10; 16:16; 22:32,37). The Father is God (6:6,9,14–15; 10:32–33; 11:25), Jesus is God (1:23; 9:6; 11:27; 12:8; 16:27; 19:28; 25:31; 26:64), and the Holy Spirit is God (1:18,20; 10:20; 12:18,28,32). Within the unity of the one God are three persons: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (28:19).

And how does any of that prove that the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus Christ?

All three persons of the Trinity, moreover, were present (and distinct from each other) at Jesus’ baptism (3:16–17). In view of this, it makes good sense that Jesus, before ascending into heaven, would instruct the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for each played a pivotal role in human salvation." R. Rhodes, Is Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit?

And how are you connecting this to your claim that the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus CHrist?

Mormonism: "Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."--Journal of Discourses 1:51, Brigham Young

And this is a key reason why Mitt Romney is NOT a Christian.

Could you please quote the first scripture that states that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Holy Ghost?

Again--the scriptures affirm that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father--not the Holy Ghost.

If you are going to insist that Mitt Romney is not Christian because of this issue--it only would confirm you are not Christian also.

[Decalogue]

Hey Mormon defenders : Be advised that the burden of proof is in your court ( to borrow a term from Tennis ) .

It is Y O U and the President/Prophet of the L.D.S. mega system that HAS to prove that YOUR self-proclaimed Prophet and his Deputy ( Brigham Young ) have any Biblical scripture p***ages which support and prove that all Christianity is wrong and that only you , the followers of Joseph Smith have any hope.

Jill posted the information for you to read ... words from the L.D.S. prophet/President Brigham Young. Brigham taught that Mary got pregnant by a VERY different way than what the Bible tells us.

It is up to you now , to decide whether you will bow the knee to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords and put your faith and trust in Him , oorrrr spend forever in a very hot and miserable place because you blindly accept the lies of a scam-artist and his crooked family in 1830's New York.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

--Jill posted the information for you to read ... words from the L.D.S. prophet/President Brigham Young. Brigham taught that Mary got pregnant by a VERY different way than what the Bible tells us.

Jill's comments that Jesus Christ's father was the Holy Ghost is foreign to the Biblical text.

The Bible makes this claim--that Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. He never makes the claim that the Holy Ghost was His Father.

If you or anyone else on this forum has a Biblical p***age where Jesus Christ makes any claim that God the Father really isn't His father--or where the Holy Ghost is His father--then please print it.

St John20:17-"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father

Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?

An interesting note Billyray---the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew. To say that Jesus was the "only" Son of God the Father and not to put in the "begotten" would mean that Jesus was no different from the other sons of God.

So, we do not know the details of how he is the "begotten" Son of God the Father, just that Mary was overcome by the Holy Ghost--but we do know that Jesus was not just a son of God as was Adam or any of God's children, but that Mary was Christ's mother and God the Father, his father. To me, that means that 23 chromosomes came from Mary and 23 chromosomes are God the Father's. How that happened, exactly---I don't know. What I do know is that God the Father is Christ's father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

An interesting note Billyray---the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew. To say that Jesus was the "only" Son of God the Father and not to put in the "begotten" would mean that Jesus was no different from the other sons of God.

But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?

Disagree.

.
.
.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Disagree.

.

"Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)

"“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Could you tell me exactly what you mean when you say "Only Begotten"?

Originally Posted by Billyray

But according to Mormonism every son or daughter of god was begotten and born in the pre earth life. Agree?

I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

Unique.

Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

Unique.

Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.

So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I'm combining these questions, because I believe they are related.

The LDS belief of the "Only Begotten" is that Jesus Christ is the only One ever begotten to this earth with a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

Unique.

Yes--the LDS believe that every spirit was begotten of God the Father before the birth of the physical body here, which it inhabits, and returns to God after death, who gave it.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So God the Father begot Jesus and Mary then the Father begot Jesus' again with his daughter who was begotten. Correct?

One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

We have earthly fathers for that.

If your ****ogy was true--then we, as humans, are impregnating our sisters, as God the Father is the Father of spirits.

The "Only Begotten" applies to the flesh, not the spirit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

One point here--God the Father did not impregnate the spirit, which He is the Father of--He impregnated the physical body--which God was not the father of.

How did you come to this conclusion?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How did you come to this conclusion?

I think we need to clarify "begotten" Son or what it means.

Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ? If Mary is Christ's mother (23 chromosomes of Mary)...where and how did the other 23 chromosomes show up, according to you. and how does that make Christ different from Adam, who was created by God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, how do you believe that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ?

I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believe that the Father and Son have been eternal Father and Son in a Father/Son relationship.

Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews1:5--"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

ESV Study Bible
". . .today I have begotten you. A poetic expression reflecting the unique relationship of the Son to God Almighty (see further Heb. 1:6); this speaks of entering into a new phase of that Father-Son relationship and should not be pressed to suggest that the Son once did not exist (he has begotten the already living Son “today”. . ."