Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

As usual, Billyray, you have taken so much out of context, it is amazing.

J answer these questions

1. Which church is the church of the lamb ig god?

2. Which churches fall under the heading OT the church of the devil?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

Thanks. This first statement fairly well reflects what I have been saying.

The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.

That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".

Have to run for now.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That is you, Billy. You are mistaking the two churches for specific religious organizations, when actually they are more accurately described as "spheres of influence".

The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

[Billyray]

". . .This definition explains why Nephi was taught that “there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church” ( 1 Nephi 14:10 ).. . ."
http://ins***ute.lds.org/manuals/Doc...-in-011-18.asp

Libby do you believe that the church of the Lamb of God is the LDS church?


How do you become a member or "belongeth" to the church of the Lamb of God?

[Libby]

Back to the subject of this thread, for a second, because I read an article this morning that relates. It is political, but has to do with Mitt Romney and Mormonism.

Gingrich IA Political Director Resigns after “Cult of Mormon” Comments Go Public

It’s official: it is no longer acceptable to call the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the fourth largest religious ins***ution in the United States, a church with 7 million members in the US and 14 million members around the world, a “cult.”

That’s the message Newt Gingrich sent when he fired his newly-hired Iowa political director Craig Bergman after it was revealed that Bergman had proposed a national crusade against the “cult of Mormon” in an Iowa focus group last week.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The church of the devil isn't a specific organization it is ". . .all churchES or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” ( Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38). . ."

Now tell me Libby which churches fall under the category of the church of the devil using this criteria?

This really is not that hard of a question which makes me wonder why you are having such a difficult time with it.

Billy, I really think you are the one who is not understanding. The answer to your question is not "any and all churchES or organizations that are NOT LDS", as you seem to be interpreting this statement, but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God". No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying. I see his quote as very much in sync with what I was taught in Gospel Doctrine (by our First Counselor in the Bishopric, who was very knowledgable and familar with LDS doctrine...so, I certainly trust his interpretation over yours).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

but rather (the answer is) "any and all churches or organizations which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God".

That is exactly what I have said Libby.

Originally Posted by Libby

No doubt there are a few churches that may actually be designed to do just that, but I would say relative few, as compared to those which actually encourage a belief in God/Christ and his moral laws.

A few? Are you kidding me?

OK lets look at the evidence. Lets start with this one. Do you think that the Catholic church leads people away from the truth of Mormonism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

McConkie, himself, explains that the two churches are a "sphere of influence", not any organized church, per se.

Here are the two churches

1. The Mormon church

2. All other churches and organizations that lead people away from the true church and the true teachings of the true church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I still think you are reading in your own interpretation of what he is saying.

I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are trying to avoid the obvious. Why? I don't know.

Nope. I simply think you have it wrong. The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.

[Libby]

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The LDS Church does not teach what you are claiming it teaches.

No I think you have it wrong Libby.

[Libby]

Here it is again, in case you couldn't find it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

I am certainly willing to be corrected by anyone who is a current member of the LDS Church, if what I have said above is grossly incorrect.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Btw, Billy, I already answered your question about The Church of the Lamb of God. Go back and read it again.

Here it is

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't know what you were taught about The Church of the Lamb, but I do know what I was taught, in the LDS Church, and no one ever told me that only those who belonged to the LDS church, while on this earth, were the only members of the Church of the Lamb of God. Just the opposite.

Libby you did not tell me in your post what is the church of the Lamb. Please tell me what organization is the church of the lamb.

[Libby]

Yes, I did. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My claim (and what I was taught) was that there are potential members sitting in every church on this planet. I don't think you can reasonably deny that.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be considered the truest church on the planet and the only one authorized to do saving ordinances...BUT, I think most would agree that there are, potentially, members of the "Church of the Lamb" in every single church and religion on the planet.

Are you kidding me Libby? The truest church on the planet? The LDS church doesn't teach this. The LDS church is not the truest church on the planet but the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET. You need to go back to the LDS church and get re-schooled on their doctrine.

All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My claim (and what I was taught) was that there are potential members sitting in every church on this planet.

But they don't belong to the only true church on the planet so how can they be a member of the church of the lamb of god?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But they don't belong to the only true church on the planet so how can they be a member of the church of the lamb of god?

Missionary work...both here and in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

". . .Elder BruceR. McConkie, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, taught: “There is only light and darkness; there is no dusky twilight zone. Either men walk in the light or they cannot be saved. Anything less than salvation is not salvation. It may be better to walk in the twilight or to glimpse the first few rays of a distant dawn than to be enveloped in total darkness, but salvation itself is only for those who step forth into the blazing light of the noonday sun ( The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man [1982], 54). . ."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...2-1ne-1-11.asp

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Missionary work...both here and in the hereafter.

If they join the LDS church then they will belong to the only true church but until that point they belong to one of the churches of the devil which leads people away from the true teachings and ordinances of the only true church.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you kidding me Libby? The truest church on the planet? The LDS church doesn't teach this. The LDS church is not the truest church on the planet but the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET. You need to go back to the LDS church and get re-schooled on their doctrine.

All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE PLANET.

Maybe that's what you were taught, Billy, but I, seriously, was not. The LDS Church is the truest church and only church with saving ordinances. Other churches do not have the fulness, but they do have a lot of truth.

That's what I was taught.

[Libby]

Remember the statement by one of the prophets about bringing all of the truth you have, with you, and allowing the LDS Church add unto it? Surely, you have heard that one. Why would a prophet say that, if he didn't believe other churches had ANY truth?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Maybe that's what you were taught, Billy, but I, seriously, was not. .

You weren't taught that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth? Really?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Remember the statement by one of the prophets about bringing all of the truth you have, with you, and letting the LDS Church add unto it? Surely, you have heard that one.

LDS believe that other Christians are lost and believe in false doctrine. Haven't you read any of DB's posts when he says that Christians have precious few doctrine that are in line with the Bible?

[Billyray]

""In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)."
http://carm.org/hinckley-says-mormon...ifferent-jesus