Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You weren't taught that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth? Really?

Where did I say that? Yes, of course, I was taught that, but it wasn't something I heard a lot.

The only true church, yes...but, not the only church with truth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The only true church, yes...

OK now we are getting somewhere. So if the LDS church is the ONLY true church then by definition every single other church teaches false doctrine and thus leads people away from the truth.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK now we are getting somewhere. So if the LDS church is the ONLY true church then by definition every single other church teaches false doctrine and thus leads people away from the truth.

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today. There is truth in every church, but only the LDS Church has the fulness of the Gospel.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today. There is truth in every church, but only the LDS Church has the fulness of the Gospel.

Every church has some truth Libby but that is not what we are talking about. If Mormonism is the ONLY true church then every other church has false doctrine by definition and since every other church has false doctrine then they all lead people astray.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, that is not what I was taught, Billy, and I don't believe that is what the church teaches, today.

Don't you think that is what BRM is saying in the following quote that ALL other churches belong to the church of the devil?

Originally Posted by Billyray

1Nephi 14:10 . “The Church of the Devil”
Elder BruceR. McConkie defined the church of the devil in the following way: “The church of the devil is the world; it is all the carnality and evil to which fallen man is heir; it is every unholy and wicked practice; it is every false religion, every supposed system of salvation which does not actually save and exalt man in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is every church except the true church, whether parading under a Christian or a pagan banner. As Moroni will say in a later era of Nephite history, and as we shall ascertain in our evaluation of Rev. 18:1–24 , it is ‘secret combinations,’ oath-bound societies, and the great world force of Godless communism. ( Ether 8:14–26 .)” ( Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:551)."
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, that is not what I was taught

My guess is that you were not LDS very long and they served up the milk for you but not the meat.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

My guess is that you were not LDS very long and they served up the milk for you but not the meat.

I was in the church for almost seven years, Billy. I attended (and worked in) the Temple. I got plenty of "meat", thanks.

I guess you were coming out around the time I was going in.

You know, McConkie is not always the best source. He has made some flubs and had to backtrack on some things. Even his book "Mormon Doctrine" is not really doctrine, but mostly his opinion. Not to say many things in there are NOT doctrine...a lot of it is probably good. But, some of it is questionable.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I was in the church for almost seven years, Billy. I attended (and worked in) the Temple. I got plenty of "meat", thanks.

The only explanation is that they changed the teachings to be more palatable to a wider audience.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The only explanation is that they changed the teachings to be more palatable to a wider audience.

I wouldn't say "changed", but I do think the teaching style is a little different, than when you were in. Also, there is always "ongoing revelation". New and more nuanced understandings.

Part of the problem with critics is that they don't usually understand the nuances (just as you seem not to)..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You know, McConkie is not always the best source.

And if you noticed I quoted BRM from an official LDS manual which you clearly could have checked by using the provided link. BTW LDS don't seem to mind quoting him.


http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp
Book of Mormon Student Manual
Religion 121 and 122

Prepared by the Church Educational System

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah

Send comments and corrections, including typographic errors, to
CES Editing, 50E. North Temple Street, Floor 8, Salt Lake City, UT 84150-2722 USA.
E-mail: ces-manuals@ldschurch.org

Revised edition
© 1989, 1996 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved
Printed in the United States of America

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I wouldn't say "changed",

Did they have Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people when you worked in the Temple?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did they have Lucifer hiring a Christian minister to convert people when you worked in the Temple?

No. I heard about that, though.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No. I heard about that, though.

So obviously they have changed things over the years to make things more palatable.

Did you pretend to slice your neck and cut out your bowels during the temple ceremony when you worked there?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And if you noticed I quoted BRM from an official LDS manual which you clearly could have checked by using the provided link. BTW LDS don't seem to mind quoting him.


http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book...02-1ne-2-3.asp
Book of Mormon Student Manual
Religion 121 and 122

Prepared by the Church Educational System

Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah

Send comments and corrections, including typographic errors, to
CES Editing, 50E. North Temple Street, Floor 8, Salt Lake City, UT 84150-2722 USA.
E-mail: ces-manuals@ldschurch.org

Revised edition
© 1989, 1996 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved
Printed in the United States of America

Yes, I saw where it came from. It still gets nuanced...at least, that was my experience. I have never had any teacher or member tell me that ALL other churches were completely false. I know for a fact that GBH did not teach that.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So obviously they have changed things over the years to make things more palatable.

Did you pretend to slice your neck and cut out your bowels during the temple ceremony when you worked there?

Nope. All gone before I came in.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I have never had any teacher or member tell me that ALL other churches were completely false.

I never said other churches were completely false. (per LDS thinking)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Nope. All gone before I came in.

So you can see that what I was taught and what you were taught were different and is the likely reason that we see things differently.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I never said other churches were completely false. (per LDS thinking)

That is what I clearly thought you were aiming for, by quoting McConkie. If all other churches are a part of the church of satan, wouldn't that automatically make them untrue..since satan is the father of lies..?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you can see that what I was taught and what you were taught were different and is the likely reason that we see things differently.

Yes, I do see that as a possibility.

Do you think it's fair to present those things you were taught, as things that are taught today?

There were a lot of things taught in Protestant churches, that are no longer taught....like burning heretics, and using the Bible to condone slavery.

Most churches have learned along the way and had a progression of ideas and teachings. The LDS Church is no different, in that regard.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That is what I clearly thought you were aiming for, by quoting McConkie.

Other churches have some truth but all other churches have false doctrine and lead people away from the truth thus by definition falls under the heading of the church of the devil. Per LDS thinking-at least when I was LDS-if other churches taught 100% falsehood then nobody would join them.

BTW BRM did say in his quote about the church of the devil that " It is every church except the true church"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you think it's fair to present those things you were taught, as things that are taught today?

Absolutely since I can quote these thing from official LDS publications. For example I quoted information about the church of the devil from an official LDS publication that supported my point of view.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Other churches have some truth but all other churches have false doctrine and lead people away from the truth thus by definition falls under the heading of the church of the devil. Per LDS thinking-at least when I was LDS-if other churches taught 100% falsehood then nobody would join them.

BTW BRM did say in his quote about the church of the devil that " It is every church except the true church"

Okay, but my Bishop's First Counselor explained it differently and said that both churches are made up of individuals from varying denominations. He made a point of saying that just because you are a member of the LDS Church, doesn't mean you are automatically a member of the Church of the Lamb. Some LDS could be members of the church of satan...and some (or many) members of OTHER CHURCHES could be members of The Church of the Lamb.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely since I can quote these thing from official LDS publications. For example I quoted information about the church of the devil from an official LDS publication that supported my point of view.

But, you leave out a lot of the nuance, as I said...and it turns out that what you are telling us is not really an accurate portrayal of what is being taught.

Plus, I am not even sure that you fully understood what you were being taught, when you were active.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, but my Bishop's First Counselor explained it differently and said that both churches are made up of individuals from varying denominations.

So who do I believe some joe smoe in your ward or an official LDS publication?