Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.

Another strawman argument Libby. It is not limited to a SPECIFIC religious organization.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.
It would be blatant arrogance to suppose that the Latter-day Saints are the only people on earth with whom our Heavenly Father is concerned or to whom he seeks to make known his mind and will. God loves all of his children on earth and seeks to teach all that people are prepared to receive (Alma 29:8).”

The Light of Christ clearly illustrates God’s universal effort with the whole human family (see D&C 88:7; Moroni 7:16). President Packer explains: “Every man, woman, and child of every nation, creed, or color—everyone, no matter where they live or what they believe or what they do—has within them the imperishable Light of Christ. In this respect, all men are created equally. The Light of Christ in everyone is a testimony that God is no respecter of persons (see D&C 1:35). He treats everyone equally in that endowment with the Light of Christ.” He continues: “The Light of Christ is as universal as sunlight itself. Wherever there is human life, there is the Spirit of Christ. Every living soul is possessed of it. It is the sponsor of everything that is good. It is the inspirer of everything that will bless and benefit mankind. It nourishes goodness itself.” President Packer then adds, “It should not be difficult, therefore, to understand how revelation from God to His children on earth can come to all mankind through both the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.”10

Furthermore, presently and throughout history, God has blessed many nations through those not of the Church who are given a portion of truth “that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). In 1978 the First Presidency stated:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promisedMessiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel. Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come. We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to His Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happinessand a fullness of joy forever. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.11

Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.ph...File/2163/2038

And nothing in here contradicts what BRM said in his quote. BTW I don't see the church of the devil or the church of the lamb of god specifically mentioned at all in your quote. Why do you think that this supports your position at all?

[Libby]

This very first statement tells me that the LDS Church does not operate from the premise that everyone outside of their church belongs to "the church of satan".

As BYU professors Robert L. Millet and Lloyd D. Newell explain: “We need only become acquainted with individuals of other religious persuasions to recognize their goodness and the truths that they possess.

The churches don't have to be mentioned. I know that the basic philosophy, stated by GBH and many others in the LDS Church, is that the LDS Church is not the only church through which God works or in which truth is found.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Another strawman argument Libby. It is not limited to a SPECIFIC religious organization.

That's exactly what I said. The church of satan is sphere of influence (that can even include LDS members)...not a specific organization or church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's exactly what I said. The church of satan is sphere of influence (that can even include LDS members)...not a specific organization or church.

And what churches fall under the category of the church of the devil since we know there are only two churches?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This very first statement tells me that the LDS Church does not operate from the premise that everyone outside of their church belongs to "the church of satan".



The churches don't have to be mentioned. I know that the basic philosophy, stated by GBH and many others in the LDS Church, is that the LDS Church is not the only church through which God works or in which truth is found.

1. List all of the churches that lead people to exhalation.

2. List all the churches or influences that do not lead people to exaltation.


When you do that you will have a list of the two churches. Libby this is not that hard of a concept to grasp. BTW the LDS church believes that all people and all churches have some truth but that only the LDS church has all of the truth and ordinances necessary for celestial life and exaltation..

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. List all of the churches that lead people to exhalation.

2. List all the churches or influences that do not lead people to exaltation.


When you do that you will have a list of the two churches. Libby this is not that hard of a concept to grasp. BTW the LDS church believes that all people and all churches have some truth but that only the LDS church has all of the truth and ordinances necessary for celestial life and exaltation..

Yes, and if you had been paying attention, that's exactly what I said, many, many posts back. Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the necessary saving ordinances.

However, your claim that they believe all other churches lead people astray is false. That's why I gave you some supplemental reading material...plus, that was really just a drop in the bucket and something I grabbed quickly off the internet. All other churches do not, necessarily, lead people astray. Just the opposite, if they are pointing towards Jesus Christ....and ultimately exaltation, even if ordinances are not performed while they are living, but in the next life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and if you had been paying attention, that's exactly what I said, many, many posts back. Only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the necessary saving ordinances.

And if you agreed with me then you would agree with me that all other churches cons***ute the church of th devil.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

However, your claim that they believe all other churches lead people astray is false.

Not false at all but completely true.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And if you agreed with me then you would agree with me that all other churches cons***ute the church of th devil.

That doesn't automatically follow, as I have shown and I think you know.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That doesn't automatically follow, as I have shown and I think you know.

You haven't shown me that at all Libby. Who do you think you are kidding?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You haven't shown me that at all Libby. Who do you think you are kidding?

Sigh.

Does this sound like a belief that all other religions lead men astray?

Teachings of other religious leaders past and present help many people become more righteous, civil, and ethical.12 God also uses good people outside of the Church to further His work. President Ezra Taft Benson said, “God, the Father of us all, uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Does this sound like a belief that all other religions lead men astray?

Would J and DB agree that my church leads me to the truth and to exaltation?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Would J and DB agree that my church leads me to the truth and to exaltation?

Now, you are equivocating. The question is, specifically, about the cons***ution of the two churches, not about exaltation. But, in reality (per LDS doctrine) any church COULD lead to exaltation, if it leads you to the truth of Christ. As you well know, ordinances can be done posthumously.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Now, you are equivocating. The question is, specifically, about the cons***ution of the two churches, not about exaltation. But, in reality (per LDS doctrine) any church COULD lead to exaltation, if it leads you to the truth of Christ. As you well know, ordinances can be done posthumously.

You didn't really answer my question. Would J and DB agree that the doctrine that I am being taught is true doctrine and would lead to my exaltation?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't really answer my question. Would J and DB agree that the doctrine that I am being taught is true doctrine and would lead to my exaltation?

I don't know. You would have to ask them.

Even if they don't believe your particular doctrine could possibly lead to exaltation, that doesn't exclude other Christian doctrines. Personally, I would think that most LDS believe that any doctrine that points to Christ as the way, could ultimately lead to exaltation. Even those that don't, but teach good principles, could lead to exaltation, with ordinances done in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't know. You would have to ask them.

Come on Libby you have been on this board long enough to know that THEY both believe that Christianity has very little in common with what the Bible teaches.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Personally, I would think that most LDS believe that any doctrine that points to Christ as the way, could ultimately lead to exaltation.

What other church would lead a person to exaltation?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Come on Libby you have been on this board long enough to know that THEY both believe that Christianity has very little in common with what the Bible teaches.

I was LDS long enough to know that, potentially almost any and all paths can lead to exaltation, with few exceptions. You know this, as well (or should).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I was LDS long enough to know that, potentially almost any and all paths can lead to exaltation, with few exceptions. You know this, as well (or should).

If that were the case then why on earth should anyone join Mormonism if exaltation is possible from being a member of any religious organization?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You know this, as well (or should).

I know that you are 100% wrong on this point.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If that were the case then why on earth should anyone join Mormonism if exaltation is possible from being a member of any religious organization?

The biggest reason may be lack of knowledge that the church even exists. LDS believe that every person will be given a chance for exaltation.

Other than that, lack of a Holy Ghost testimony (per LDS belief). That could change, either in the course of their lifetime or in the hereafter. I have heard there will be lots of missionary work going on, in the hereafter.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The biggest reason may be lack of knowledge that the church even exists.

Why should that matter at all since per your thinking exaltation is possible from any religion. Why send missionaries out if every religion is good and people can be exalted regardless of what religion they belong to?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why should that matter at all since per your thinking exaltation is possible from any religion. Why send missionaries out if every religion is good and people can be exalted regardless of what religion they belong to?

Because some are ready NOW...others are not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because some are ready NOW...others are not.

Ready for what? Why change from what they already believe?