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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #951
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Ready for what? Why change from what they already believe?
    None of that matters. You are starting to wander. The point is, LDS do believe in "second chances" and in some cases "first chances" in the hereafter. You just chastised a Mormon for believing in "second chances", because you believe there is only one chance, and that is in this lifetime.

  2. #952
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    You are starting to wander.
    No I am not starting to wander. Why change from what they already believe if what they believe is true and they can be exalted without changing?

  3. #953
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The point is, LDS do believe in "second chances" and in some cases "first chances" in the hereafter.
    Why would they need a second chance if what the believe is true already?

  4. #954
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    No I am not starting to wander. Why change from what they already believe if what they believe is true and they can be exalted without changing?
    Billy...I have to wonder if these are sincere questions. People will stay with whatever belief system they believe is true or, perhaps, just feel comfortable with, because it's the faith of their family. This same principle is in operation for your belief system. You switched to mainstream Christian, ten years ago, so it seems that you were not ready for that switch, until that point in time. Really not difficult to understand. Most people have a faith journey that is a process in spiritual growth.

  5. #955
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why would they need a second chance if what the believe is true already?
    The basics (a belief in Christ) may be there, but as you know, LDS believe that certain ordinances are necessary.

  6. #956
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy...I have to wonder if these are sincere questions.
    They are questions to show you your error. Mormons believe that they belong to the only true church and are the only church that can provide celestial life and exaltation. All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the truth that is why they are considered churches of the devil.

  7. #957
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    They are questions to show your error. Mormons believe that they belong to the only true church and are the only church that can provide celestial life and exaltation.
    That's correct.

    All other churches teach false doctrine and lead people away from the truth that is why they are considered churches of the devil.
    That is incorrect, and I have shown you proof of that, plus if you were ever LDS, you will know that is not what they teach.

  8. #958
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The basics (a belief in Christ) may be there, but as you know, LDS believe that certain ordinances are necessary.
    Mormons and other churches don't even agree on the basics. They are completely different.

  9. #959
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post

    That is incorrect, and I have shown you proof of that, plus if you were ever LDS, you will know that is not what they teach.
    You are absolutely wrong and you haven't shown me anything to prove otherwise.

    And we ave a quote from a LDS leader from an official LDS publication that proves you wrong. But you are too stubborn to admit your error.

  10. #960
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Mormons and other churches don't even agree on the basics. They are completely different.
    They are pretty different, I think even most LDS would agree. But, they do share some basics with other religions, including mainstream Christians. A basic belief in Christ and the same basic moral code.

  11. #961
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You are absolutely wrong and you haven't shown me anything to prove otherwise.

    And we ave a quote from a LDS leader from an official LDS publication that proves you wrong. But you are too stubborn to admit your error.
    I think you are the one who is being stubborn, refusing to allow only the one quote you provided as any sort of "proof".

    I really think this discussion is at an end.

    Merry Christmas, Billy.

  12. #962
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    [QUOTE=BigJulie;101614]

    Which is why so many Protestants at one point were put to death, as well as the men who translated the Bible to English--because the "Christian" church at that time thought that what they were doing was heretical.

    I guess you are just the next in th line to claim they are the one who protects the "religion" and the "correct view".

    That said, it might be worth noting that the word "only" and the word "begotten" have two different meanings in Hebrew.
    The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

    In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

    In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

    For God so loveth the world,
    that he hath given his only son,
    that none that believe in him,
    should perish:
    but should have everlasting life.
    —John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

    The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

    For God so loved the world
    that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him
    shall not perish
    but have eternal life.
    —John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

    The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

    Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?

  13. #963
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    [QUOTE=Apologette;116853]
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    The term "begotten" was not written in Hebrew, but in Koine Greek, in the New Testament:

    In the original Greek, that's: μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios

    In actuality, the proper translation would be Tyndale's:

    For God so loveth the world,
    that he hath given his only son,
    that none that believe in him,
    should perish:
    but should have everlasting life.
    —John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).

    The Greek word, monogenes, is translated by the NIV thusly:

    For God so loved the world
    that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him
    shall not perish
    but have eternal life.
    —John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.

    The KJV's tanslation of the word monogenes as "only begotten," is a problem with the translation. I believe Dr. Martin actually pointed this out once in a tape I heard.

    Think, if Jesus is the ONLY Son, that gives Mormons a real problem, don't you think?
    So, do you know what the word "only" means in Hebrew? (No, it doesn't give Mormons a problem at all---but it should give you a problem )

    Here is an example:

    Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

    Was Isaac, Abraham's ONLY son?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 03-23-2012 at 10:41 AM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #964
    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

    This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.
    No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.

  15. #965
    alanmolstad
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    As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

    I see his religion as a non-issue.

    I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

    Shame on anyone who would....

  16. #966
    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

    I see his religion as a non-issue.

    I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

    Shame on anyone who would....
    There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.

  17. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    No this thread is about a 501c trying to influence the outcome of a Presidential race.
    I completely and utterly agree.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  18. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    As a Christian I yet will have no problem or any issues at all with voting for Mitt Romney for President.

    I see his religion as a non-issue.

    I totally reject any argument that we should take a person's private thoughts of religion into account when we vote for anyone....be it a local mayor, or the president of the country.

    Shame on anyone who would....
    But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #969
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    There is a reason for the three branches of Gov't. Some have suggested that he will turn over America to Thomas S Mason, and by so doing lose all credibility.
    FEAR ...is a poor subs***ute for reason...

    This country is founded on an idea that all men are created equal.
    And that we have governments in order to protect the equality of men.

    The moment we say that These other type of people ( Mormons, Catholic, Buddhist, etc), have less right to be elected because of their very personal,private faith we spit on the very things this country should stand for.

    If we have a dream and a lasting goal in this country about how each generation of Americans picks it's leaders, let that dream and goal be that we can teach every child that they have just as much right to grow up and become the President as anyone else, regardless of race, creed or color...



  20. #970
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    But Alan, you seem to have a bias against Romney that you don't recognize. It seems that you will trust someone like Newt when he says he has changed, but not Romney.
    I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

    None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

    I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

    I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

    But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

    I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

    It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

    I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
    I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

    I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


    (I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-28-2012 at 09:43 AM.

  21. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I believe Mitt Romney is a political pros***ute, and that he panders to whatever people or special interest group that he is currently in front of, and that I think his many flip-flops on important issues like ABORTION, and health care should bar him from representing my Conservative Party.....

    None the less I do not hold his religion or his views about God and Jesus Christ to be revelant to my voting for him or against him.

    I would gladly vote AGAINST Mitt Romney , on political grounds.

    I would gladly vote for a bag of dirt rather that Mitt on Political grounds....

    But on religious grounds I find no reason to not vote for him ...

    I do not hold the personal life or the personal views of people against them when I enter into the voting booth.

    It's the same to me as hiring a guy to fix the roof.

    I do not care if the guy who wants to fix my roof is a good Christian or a good Mormon, or a Buddhist...
    I do not care if the roofer has been married to only one wife, or has been married and divorced 7 times...

    I only care that the guy knows how to fix my roof...


    (I do remember that Walter Martin said the same as what I am saying during a answer he gave on his show dealing with the fact that many Christian proLife groups were working with many other religions)
    But, the way you defended Newt in spite of some of the terrible things he has done---not to mention supporting mandates, ethical violations, etc---the way you defend someone who has obvious problems and then attack Mitt for far less problems, well, it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #972
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    .... it appears that their religious affiliations does affect your trust for what they say.
    That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....

  23. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    That that feeling of yours is yet another place where you are in error....
    I wish it was that obvious to me. If I saw consistency---where bad behavior of all were judged the same...instead of forgiveness of one, but not of another. It comes across as bias.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #974
    alanmolstad
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    The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

    There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

    His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

    Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .

  25. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The reason I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney is that I share the same deep-seated feeling of mistrust about the guy's views as to most Republican conservatives.

    There is just something politically slimy about the guy.

    His refusal to join with other Republicans and the Pro-Life cause during this election at the 4 different pro-life forums that all the other candidates attended, leads me to believe that he simply will not go to the mat for anything.

    Rather, when I look at Mitt Romney what I see is a guy who is a modern political version of Elmer Gantry .
    But, on the basis you give, you should also have a deep-seated mistrust of Newt- or even Rick Santorum who was voted one of the most unethical politicians in Washington (in the top three)--which you haven't shown.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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