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Thread: Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

  1. #76
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Billyray--to recap our discussion--you trying to connect Mary's impregnation to incest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Isn't that true from the LDS point of view?
    No. And one has to do no more than weed through our posts to see that your accusations did not pan out there.

  2. #77
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Okay--so this has gone from what it means to be begotten to your accusations regarding how Mary became impregnated.
    That is what you believe isn't? That is what I used to believe.

  3. #78
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Do you believe the term "begotten" does not mean what it means in every other case when it is used in the Bible?
    You mean become pregnant via sex? Then no I don't believe that.

  4. #79
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Again--how are you tying the begetting of spirits to the impregnation of Mary's spirit, instead of her mortal body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I am asking specifically about this quote.

    Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family," Gospel Principles, (2009)
    "“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

    The spirit was begotten and born. How are you defining begotten?
    I know exactly what you are doing, Billy. As soon as you lose one argument--you flip flop through another one.

    be·get--Merriam Webster
    verb \bi-ˈget, bē-\
    be·got\-ˈgät\ also be·gat\-ˈgat\be·got·ten\-ˈgä-tən\ or be·gotbe·get·ting
    Definition of BEGET
    transitive verb
    1
    : to procreate as the father : sire
    2
    : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
    — be·get·ter noun

  5. #80
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No.
    1. Mary is the literal daughter begotten and born.

    2. Mary is the literal wife of the father for the physical body of Jesus.

    Agree?

  6. #81
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    As soon as you lose one argument
    What argument did I lose?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You mean become pregnant via sex? Then no I don't believe that.
    Okay, Billyray, even for you, you are stretching.

    I said regarding what it means to be "begotten":

    It means that our spirits are made up of the spiritual matter of God.

    Likewise, we believe that our begotten bodies are made up of the physical matter of our parents (their DNA)
    and:

    So, we do not know the details of how he is the "begotten" Son of God the Father, just that Mary was overcome by the Holy Ghost--but we do know that Jesus was not just a son of God as was Adam or any of God's children, but that Mary was Christ's mother and God the Father, his father. To me, that means that 23 chromosomes came from Mary and 23 chromosomes are God the Father's. How that happened, exactly---I don't know. What I do know is that God the Father is Christ's father.
    You are ignoring my responses and instead, I guess I will have to rely on Paul when he taught:

    2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    As usual Billyray, you are beginning to rely on "foolish and unlearned" questions rather than honest ones.

    That said---you never told me if I was correct in your description of what it means to by "begotten"---is it to you rather just a figure of speech regarding Christ and does not have the same meaning as when it is used in other parts of the Bible?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #83
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    That Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten" Son is reference to the earthly fleshly child of His mother Mary and His Father God the Father.
    Which verse are you using for "only begotten"?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Which verse are you using for "only begotten"?
    1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    Compare to:

    Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

    (Keep in mind, that Abraham also had Ishmael---and if you read this in account in the OT which this refers to in Hebrew, it says his son (which means begotten), his only (which means the child of the covenant.) In others, his "only" is a separate phrase.)
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #85
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    To me, that means that 23 chromosomes came from Mary and 23 chromosomes are God the Father's.
    As I said before God can create by speaking it into existence. God could have created an embryo and not utilized Mary's egg at all if that is what he wanted.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    As I said before God can create by speaking it into existence. God could have created an embryo and not utilized Mary's egg at all if that is what he wanted.
    You are right. But, then, how would she be his mother? Was Mary his "adopted" mother---his serogate mother? And then, if that be the case, where did the 46 chromosomes come from? Was Christ body just another one like Adam's, one that God created, but was not the actual father of? Why say "begotten" then?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #87
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    1 John 4:9 (from Net Bible page)

    NET 4:9 By this 1 the love of God is revealed in us: that God has sent his one and only Son into the world so that we may live through him.

    NIV 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

    NASB4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

    ESV 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

    NLT 4:9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.

    BBE 4:9 And the love of God was made clear to us when he sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.

    NRSV 4:9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him.

    KJV 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


    Not all versions translated it "only begotten" son.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    1 John 4:9 (from Net Bible page)

    NET 4:9 By this 1 the love of God is revealed in us: that God has sent his one and only Son into the world so that we may live through him.

    NIV 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

    NASB4:9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

    ESV 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

    NLT 4:9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.

    BBE 4:9 And the love of God was made clear to us when he sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.

    NRSV 4:9 God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him.

    KJV 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


    Not all versions translated it "only begotten" son.
    Yes, I realize that, which is why I pointed you to Abraham in which "only begotten" is used for Isaac even though Ishmael was also Abraham's begotten son and explained to you that the term "only" does not mean a single child---but rather the child of the covenant. In that case--Christ could be just like Adam or anyone else created by God and is considered the child of the covenant alone and not begotten. Is that what you believe?

    If you read the account of Isaac in the OT in Hebrew, it phrases "only" and "begotten" in two separate phrases...so it would be said -- "your son (which means begotten), your only (which means the child of the covenant.)
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #89
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, I realize that, which is why I pointed you to Abraham in which "only begotten" is used for Isaac even though Ishmael was also Abraham's begotten son and explained to you that the term "only" does not mean a single child---but rather the child of the covenant.
    And you also believe that only may not mean only because you were also begotten by your father.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And you also believe that only may not mean only because you were also begotten by your father.
    No, that is why I said I disagree, because in the NT, the term "only begotten" means, the child of the covenant who is begotten of the father, refering to his physical body. Which is why in the Bible, we have the term "sons of God" and the terms "begotten Son" of God---noting the difference. The term "only" then denotes that Christ is not only the alone begotten of the father but also the child of the covenant.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  16. #91
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Which is why in the Bible, we have the term "sons of God" and the terms "begotten Son" of God---noting the difference.
    Both are begotten by the father--which of course you believe. Right?

  17. #92
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    No, that is why I said I disagree, because in the NT, the term "only begotten" means,
    But not all versions use the term "only begotten" rather they use one and only.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Both are begotten by the father--which of course you believe. Right?
    No, not right---"sons of God" are begotten by their earthly parents and refers to those born on earth and Christ being "begotten" of the Father refers to the fact that His Father is God the Father.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But not all versions use the term "only begotten" rather they use one and only.
    So, are you saying that you don't believe that Christ "begotten" of the Father and that God the Father is not really His Father?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #95
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, are you saying that you don't believe that Christ "begotten" of the Father and that God the Father is not really His Father?
    The Father and Son have eternally been Father and Son. The Father did not procreate the Son by sex with Mary like the LDS teach.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Father and Son have eternally been Father and Son. The Father did not procreate the Son by sex with Mary like the LDS teach.
    So, what are you saying---that after everything I have told you regarding my beliefs, you are going to rely on your salacious smearing of my beliefs? But I guess by your comments, you think sex is bad or naughty or disgusting and so you have to project that untrue belief onto me. *sigh*

    Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

    http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html
    For the letter, you can go to the website.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #97
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, what are you saying---that after everything I have told you regarding my beliefs, you are going to rely on your salacious smearing of my beliefs?
    Why is stating the facts a "salacious smearing of my beliefs"?

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why is stating the facts a "salacious smearing of my beliefs"?
    I will repeat.


    Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

    http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #99
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I will repeat.
    That is what I believed as an LDS member and that is what some of your leaders taught. But since every LDS has different beliefs then I believe you that you do not believe sex was involved.

    So how is your concept of how Mary became pregnant different than mine?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    That is what I believed as an LDS member and that is what some of your leaders taught. But since every LDS has different beliefs then I believe you that you do not believe sex was involved.

    So how is your concept of how Mary became pregnant different than mine?
    I will repeat:

    Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

    http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html
    My version is different because you seem to think that "begotten" of the Father is just a poetic term and that Jesus Christ is not really the Son of God the Father.

    You seem to be caught up in how he could be the Son of God rather than acknowledging that He is the Son of God. I say, it doesn't matter how---all we know is that Mary was overcome by the Holy Ghost--other than that, we know nothing concerning HOW, but we do know that HE IS the Son of God.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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