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  1. #1
    Heart2Heart
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    Default Where Did God Come From?

    Most religions believe God exists; so, where did God come from? Did He come from nothingness?

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Most religions believe God exists; so, where did God come from? Did He come from nothingness?
    Greetings H2H,
    As humans we want to know the answer to every question, but when it comes to God there are just some things we cannot know. He gives us proof of His existance by His creation, it is obvious everything has a purpose.
    It is scientifically impossible for nothing to create everything. If nothing created everything, then the "nothing" isn’t nothing. It is something, because it had the amazing ability to create everything. Only an unscientific ignoramus would hold to the thought that nothing created everything. We have the dilemma of having everything, so we therefore have to come to the conclusion that something made it. Whatever it was, it had to be non-material (unseen), eternal (without beginning or end), and it had to be omnipotent (have the amazing ability to create everything from nothing). If the professing atheist concedes to such basic logic (which he must or he reveals that he is unscientific and unintelligent), then he’s not an atheist. He is in truth an agnostic ("One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."). He is someone who believes that there was a creative force that brought everything into existence, but for some reason he denies that it was God. I think athiests are really hoping there is no God more than really believing that God does not exist. When we wish to realte to God we must realize that there are things about Him we will never understand so some things must be taken on faith. He tells us in the Scriptures that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". It is not wrong to have questions about God's existance but our inability to understand all His ways sometimes causes us to stumble.

  3. #3
    IncitingRiots
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    "Whatever it was, it had to be non-material (unseen), eternal (without beginning or end), and it had to be omnipotent (have the amazing ability to create everything from nothing). If the professing atheist concedes to such basic logic (which he must or he reveals that he is unscientific and unintelligent), then he’s not an atheist. He is in truth an agnostic"

    I have to disagree with you there. Wherever it is we came from it doesn't "have" to be anything. For all intents and purposes, I am an atheist, and I the fact I don't agree with you does not me I am unscientific or unintelligent. You making that claim is what show those two traits. There is nothing logical about what you said. It is nothing more than speculation. For all we know, we spontaneously appeared out of nowhere. The word created implies that there was intent. The fact of the matter is there is no evidence that supports that theory. Agnostics, well they are nothing but a bunc of pansy fence sitters who are too scared, or dumb, to make a decision either way. Pathetic.

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IncitingRiots View Post
    "Whatever it was, it had to be non-material (unseen), eternal (without beginning or end), and it had to be omnipotent (have the amazing ability to create everything from nothing). If the professing atheist concedes to such basic logic (which he must or he reveals that he is unscientific and unintelligent), then he’s not an atheist. He is in truth an agnostic"

    I have to disagree with you there. Wherever it is we came from it doesn't "have" to be anything. For all intents and purposes, I am an atheist, and I the fact I don't agree with you does not me I am unscientific or unintelligent. You making that claim is what show those two traits. There is nothing logical about what you said. It is nothing more than speculation. For all we know, we spontaneously appeared out of nowhere. The word created implies that there was intent. The fact of the matter is there is no evidence that supports that theory. Agnostics, well they are nothing but a bunc of pansy fence sitters who are too scared, or dumb, to make a decision either way. Pathetic.
    Greetings IR, good to hear from you.
    Of course there was intent and all you need to do is look around and you will see evidence, do you see anything that does not have a purpose? When you look at a building your intelligence tells you that there must have been a builder, the building did not spontaneously appear out of nowhere. There is more evidence to support creation, in the world around us than there is to support spontaneous appearing. Of course you do not have to agree with me but that does not make my statement illogical. Is it logical to think that everything came from nothing, that requires much more faith than belief in a Creator.

  5. #5
    God-free
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Greetings IR, good to hear from you.
    Of course there was intent and all you need to do is look around and you will see evidence, do you see anything that does not have a purpose? When you look at a building your intelligence tells you that there must have been a builder, the building did not spontaneously appear out of nowhere.
    Yes, buildings require a builder. People build buildings with a specific purpose in mind. There's no dispute over the existence of people. The thing is, you see the Earth as a place that was "designed" for the purpose of supporting life. The truth is, you have it backwards. Our environment doesn't adapt and conform to our needs. It is we who adapt and conform to our environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    There is more evidence to support creation, in the world around us than there is to support spontaneous appearing.
    Actually, there's zero evidence to support creation.

    Spontaneous appearing? Really? Who says that? I can't help laughing a little when I hear a theist talk this way considering what so many of them believe about how the universe came to be. They have no problem recognizing how ridiculous such a thing sounds if it comes from a nontheist. But, they're profoundly deaf to how ridiculous it sounds when Christians say, "The Earth, sun, moon, etc. were spoken into existence".

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Of course you do not have to agree with me but that does not make my statement illogical. Is it logical to think that everything came from nothing, that requires much more faith than belief in a Creator.
    Not knowing exactly how the universe began, if it needed a beginning at all, does not mean anyone believes everything came from nothing. In light of all we do know about the universe, to postulate a magical deity as an explanation for anything seems just plain silly to me.

    Barbara
    Last edited by God-free; 09-06-2009 at 01:17 AM.

  6. #6
    GiGi
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    Thank dogness you are here! Now we can give this subject the attention it deserves. Welcome!

  7. #7
    God-free
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Greetings H2H,
    As humans we want to know the answer to every question, but when it comes to God there are just some things we cannot know. He gives us proof of His existance by His creation, it is obvious everything has a purpose.
    Hello disciple,

    I agree that humans have a natural desire to know as much as possible about ourselves and our surroundings. What I don't understand is why so many 21st century people still feel a need to attribute anything at all to a superbeing. I see no proof of "His" existence anywhere. Nor is it obvious that everything has a given purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It is scientifically impossible for nothing to create everything. If nothing created everything, then the "nothing" isn’t nothing. It is something, because it had the amazing ability to create everything. Only an unscientific ignoramus would hold to the thought that nothing created everything.
    In all honesty, have you ever heard anyone actually claim that "nothing created everything"? I've heard many Christians claim that that's what atheists believe. However, to my knowledge, no atheist has ever said such a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    We have the dilemma of having everything, so we therefore have to come to the conclusion that something made it. Whatever it was, it had to be non-material (unseen), eternal (without beginning or end), and it had to be omnipotent (have the amazing ability to create everything from nothing).
    Why do we "have to" come to that conclusion? Why does the universe "have to" have been made by an intelligent, purpose-driven deity? Isn't it more likely that whatever brought about the universe was a natural and unguided occurrence? The truth is, no one knows yet, with certainty, how this universe came into existence. Science is getting very close to finding the answer but, as of yet, we just don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    If the professing atheist concedes to such basic logic (which he must or he reveals that he is unscientific and unintelligent), then he’s not an atheist. He is in truth an agnostic ("One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."). He is someone who believes that there was a creative force that brought everything into existence, but for some reason he denies that it was God.
    I think you're confused about these definitions. Let me see if I can simplify it for you.
    theist: believes a god or gods exist.
    agnostic: believes that it's impossible to know if a god or gods exist.
    atheist: does not believe any god or gods exist.
    For theists and atheists, it's a question of belief (i.e.; convinced or not convinced).
    For the agnostic, it's a question of knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I think athiests are really hoping there is no God more than really believing that God does not exist.
    Well, you're mistaken, but I am curious to know why you think this.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    When we wish to realte to God we must realize that there are things about Him we will never understand so some things must be taken on faith.
    Isn't it all about faith? I mean, what do you really understand about God other than what fallible human beings wrote about him in stories?

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    He tells us in the Scriptures that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". It is not wrong to have questions about God's existance but our inability to understand all His ways sometimes causes us to stumble.
    In my opinion, the only thing you can get from scripture is the thoughts of long-dead men who lived in a time and place when magic and mysticism were commonly used to explain the things they didn't understand.

    Barbara

  8. #8
    HRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Greetings H2H,
    As humans we want to know the answer to every question, but when it comes to God there are just some things we cannot know. He gives us proof of His existance by His creation,
    There is something missing here: the argument that the universe is a creation.
    it is obvious everything has a purpose.
    Or that some people project their purposes onto everything.
    It is scientifically impossible for nothing to create everything.
    It is not scientifically required for the universe to be created at all.
    If nothing created everything, then the "nothing" isn’t nothing. It is something, because it had the amazing ability to create everything. Only an unscientific ignoramus would hold to the thought that nothing created everything. We have the dilemma of having everything, so we therefore have to come to the conclusion that something made it.
    Or we can conjecture the same about the universe that theists conjecture about their God: that it has always existed and was not made by something else.
    Whatever it was, it had to be non-material (unseen), eternal (without beginning or end), and it had to be omnipotent (have the amazing ability to create everything from nothing).
    It needed not be eternal (because it might itself have been created) nor omnipotent (all we could conclude is that it was able to create this universe).


    If the professing atheist concedes to such basic logic (which he must or he reveals that he is unscientific and unintelligent), then he’s not an atheist. He is in truth an agnostic ("One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."). He is someone who believes that there was a creative force that brought everything into existence,
    As a theist, you should ask yourself which creative force is responsible for the existence of your God (even if said existence is eternal).

    It is not wrong to have questions about God's existance but our inability to understand all His ways sometimes causes us to stumble.
    Alternative scenario: the various self-contradictions in concepts like omnipotence and omniscience should make us believe that such a being does not exist.

  9. #9
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Most religions believe God exists; so, where did God come from? Did He come from nothingness?
    This is a great question.

    Neither the religion or the science are able to answer this question with a full cer***ude. For now, believers and scientists, they are agreeing that there was a beginning (big bang theory).

    It is difficult to understand that all causalities did not have an original cause. Believers and scientists are searching for this original cause. For the believers the research is intuitive and for the scientists the research is rational.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 01-19-2009 at 12:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Ronson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    This is a great question.

    Neither the religion or the science are able to answer this question with a full cer***ude. For now, believers and scientists, they are agreeing that there was a beginning (big bang theory).

    It is difficult to understand that all causalities did not have an original cause. Believers and scientists are searching for this original cause. For the believers the research is intuitive and for the scientists the research is rational.
    I have been running into some humanist/atheist hypocrisy lately. In my arguments with them, some of the physcists will say theists are "special pleading" when they claim God has always existed. They will also call "special pleading" when the theist claims God exists outside of the universe, and the universe was created by God from the outside.

    Yet these same people will claim the universe (in one form or another) has always existed; the Big Bang just being a transformation. They will also sometimes claim that forces beyond our known universe may have had influence or causation for our universe. Isn't this the same "special pleading" they accuse theists of making? That God exists outside the universe and had causation for our universe?

  11. #11
    God-free
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    I have been running into some humanist/atheist hypocrisy lately. In my arguments with them, some of the physcists will say theists are "special pleading" when they claim God has always existed. They will also call "special pleading" when the theist claims God exists outside of the universe, and the universe was created by God from the outside.

    Yet these same people will claim the universe (in one form or another) has always existed; the Big Bang just being a transformation. They will also sometimes claim that forces beyond our known universe may have had influence or causation for our universe. Isn't this the same "special pleading" they accuse theists of making? That God exists outside the universe and had causation for our universe?
    When you exempt God from needing an explanation simply because he's God, that's special pleading. The theories that science puts forth about the universe are backed by observation and other evidence that is available to everyone. Not so with God.

    Barbara

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    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    This is a great question.

    Neither the religion or the science are able to answer this question with a full cer***ude. For now, believers and scientists, they are agreeing that there was a beginning (big bang theory).

    It is difficult to understand that all causalities did not have an original cause. Believers and scientists are searching for this original cause. For the believers the research is intuitive and for the scientists the research is rational.

    Trinity
    Trinity,

    To which cause do you refer? The cause of the big bang or the cause of the m*** that exploded giving us the big bang?

    If the latter is the case, do we not have in effect two casues as a body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an equal or greater force?

    Blessings,

    MacG
    Last edited by MacG; 02-04-2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: psell chekcer

  13. #13
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Trinity,

    To which cause do you refer? The cause of the big bang or the cause of the m*** that exploded giving us the big bang?

    If the latter is the case, do we not have in effect two casues as a body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an equal or greater force?

    Blessings,

    MacG
    The cause of the big bang. The cause of all causes.

    Trinity

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    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    The cause of the big bang. The cause of all causes.

    Trinity
    Man concocted the Big Bang theory not God.

  15. #15
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Man concocted the Big Bang theory not God.
    Yes. The theory was originated by a French Catholic priest. A man of God.


    Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître

    "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe that is best supported by all lines of scientific evidence and observation."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    Trinity

  16. #16
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Yes. The theory was originated by a French Catholic priest. A man of God.



    The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe that is best supported by all lines of scientific evidence and observation."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    Trinity
    Why would I want to believe a priest who is fallible to what the Bible says which is infallible? I have often wondered where God came from. But, I don't think God came from the Big Bang theory. I will have to believe God always existed since the beginning of time.

  17. #17
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Why would I want to believe a priest who is fallible to what the Bible says which is infallible? I have often wondered where God came from. But, I don't think God came from the Big Bang theory. I will have to believe God always existed since the beginning of time.
    I never thought or said that God has come from the Big Bang.

    For me he was the initiator of this Big Bang.

    The Bible states that the Univers had a beginning. The scientifical priest is saying the same thing, though he proved it with the maths.

    Trinity

  18. #18
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I never thought or said that God has come from the Big Bang.

    For me he was the initiator of this Big Bang.

    The Bible states that the Univers had a beginning. The scientifical priest is saying the same thing, though he proved it with the maths.

    Trinity
    In the book of Genesis, God displays the stages of His creation per day. If the Big Bang occurred, it would happen in an instant combustion not in progression.

  19. #19
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    In the book of Genesis, God displays the stages of His creation per day. If the Big Bang occurred, it would happen in an instant combustion not in progression.
    Genesis 1:1
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    The first chapter of Genesis mention that God created the Universe ex nihilo, or "out of nothing". Creatio ex nihilo, meaning "creation out of nothing".

    2 Maccabees 7:28
    Son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing.

    The Hebraic verb "bara" used in the text has this meaning of creating without raw material. The three verbs, Bara (to create), Ya*** (to do) and Tsar (to structure), must be compared in the six days story.

    Trinity

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    Why would I want to believe a priest who is fallible to what the Bible says which is infallible? I have often wondered where God came from. But, I don't think God came from the Big Bang theory. I will have to believe God always existed since the beginning of time.
    (bolding mine)
    The Bible isn't infallible. Have you read it?

    Barbara

  21. #21
    TRiG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    For now, believers and scientists, they are agreeing that there was a beginning.
    No. You're wrong. Many believers don't think there was a beginning. I think I'm right in saying the Hindus don't, for example.

    TRiG.

  22. #22
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRiG View Post
    No. You're wrong. Many believers don't think there was a beginning. I think I'm right in saying the Hindus don't, for example.

    TRiG.
    You are right. In my sentence, 'believer', has a more restricted sense. I was referring to the Christendom. And, yes we do not need to be a christian for believing into a deity or deities. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Trinity

  23. #23
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Greetings Barbara,
    It is nice to meet you and I'm sorry that you are God-free, but of course that is your God given right. There are a lot of people who don't believe in a divine creator and all believers were once unbelievers so pretty much everyone starts at the same place. We also tend to get annoyed with others when they don't agree with us, I guess that's the fun of a discussion forum, being annoyed enough to stay interested while not getting angry. Anyway , I believe God created everything, you say there is no God, so where did everything come from? Even if you believe in evolution, there had to be a start or a first thing.
    I often hear the scientists are getting close to finding out how everything began
    and what will they conclude? Either God created eveything or everything came from nothing.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Greetings Barbara,
    It is nice to meet you...
    Nice to meet you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    .. and I'm sorry that you are God-free,...
    No need to be sorry for me. I'm quite happy to be free. I highly recommend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    .. but of course that is your God given right.


    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    There are a lot of people who don't believe in a divine creator and all believers were once unbelievers so pretty much everyone starts at the same place.
    Agreed. Unfortunately, too many of us are exposed to religion so early in life that our memories don't go back that far, making it seem as though it's always been there. I think that's unfairly manipulative and can, effectively, interfere with a person's natural capacity for intellectual growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    We also tend to get annoyed with others when they don't agree with us, I guess that's the fun of a discussion forum, being annoyed enough to stay interested while not getting angry.
    Have I annoyed you? I agree discussion forums can be fun, even addictive for some, but so far our discussion hasn't gotten heated. Even if it did, I hope you wouldn't take it personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Anyway , I believe God created everything, you say there is no God, so where did everything come from?
    Actually, what I say is, "I don't believe in god(s)". The question of where everything came from is not related to atheism. I can offer my opinion based on what little I've read on the subject (i.e.; big bang; multiverse; etc.), but the fact is, there is no definitive answer yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Even if you believe in evolution, there had to be a start or a first thing.
    If we're still talking about the origin of the universe, I don't know that there had to be a start or a first thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I often hear the scientists are getting close to finding out how everything began
    and what will they conclude?
    Beats me.

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Either God created eveything...
    Which brings us to the question in the OP. Where did God come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    .. or everything came from nothing.
    I've never heard anyone make that claim. Have you?

    Barbara

  25. #25
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hello again Barbara,
    Thanks for your reply. No you have not annoyed me, that was a pre-emptive statement because atheists usually get annoyed with me. I hope we can have future discussions without taking anything personal. I don't know a lot about science but I love God and enjoy talking about all the great things I believe He has done, including of course His creative work but also His wonderful redemptive work.
    By the way, I'm glad you are happy, God is good to everyone.
    I believe God has always existed, I don't understand an eternal existance nor can I explain it but I believe it. You know, faith.

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