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Thread: The Thief

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    Default The Thief

    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

  2. #2
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    The thief had faith in Christ and was saved as evidenced by the fact that he was with Christ in Paradise that day. ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.

  3. #3
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    The ECF have nothing to say in these tidbits about the status of the thief on the cross. We have only the words of Jesus that He would be with him is Paradise. We have the statement of the Bible that He took captivity captive. Paul telling us by the Holy Spirit that when he died he would be with Jesus, tells us that Abraham's bosom is not empty and all the faithful dead are with God in heaven.. The thief is still with the Lord and is now before Him at the throne of grace.. THINK!!! IHS jim

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    akaSeerone
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    Did you read Billy Ray's latest post in the "Where are all the faith alone" thread?

    That works here to.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The thief had faith in Christ and was saved ...
    But that is just the point--neither the Bible nor the Early Church Fathers believed that there was not any faith without works:

    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

    But how do these statements differ from the scriptures:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."



    ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.
    The wide agreement of the ECF's on this point is worthy of consideration, no matter what one may believe about what cons***utes scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    ?????

    Where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

    -BH

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    dberrie----Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees
    (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    James Banta---The ECF have nothing to say in these tidbits about the status of the thief on the cross.


    I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

    These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

    James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

    But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


    We have only the words of Jesus that He would be with him is Paradise.
    How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:


    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
    DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?
    I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.
    Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 11-27-2011 at 12:36 PM.

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise.
    You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

    Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--
    Abraham wasn't baptized yet you believe he was saved. Do you believe that he needed a proxy baptism for the dead for him to be saved?

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here.
    What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved. Why does he need a opportunity after death?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.
    Can you show me any NT member who went INSIDE the Temple proper which is the Holy of Holies or the Holy Place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

    Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.
    I know. But you have a dog in the fight.

    I was wondering--how much trouble would you have in disbelieving this verse:

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I know. But you have a dog in the fight.
    You are the one who is changing the verse not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved.
    And what is the evidence that faith is independent of obedience to Christ?


    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

    Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
    Do you define faith without works?

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    No answer, DB...???

    -BH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?
    I am curious as you have never answered my question about this. The thief did three things on the cross. He defended Christ, he confessed his sin, and he asked Christ to remember him.

    Billyray, I have asked you this a few times now and you have never answered.

    Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?
    We are saved when we place our faith in Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?
    Would the thief have done those things without faith? It was grace that saved through his faith. What made the lame man at the pool of Siloam well? His decades of work attempting to get into the water? If fact, Jesus wanted to help him but his ingrained habit of working to get into the water nearly prevented his healing had Jesus not persued him beyond his initial focus on his failed works.

    Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow. Of faith that is on the level of acknowledgement but disregarding and not following, such as the pre-free range, gr*** eating Nebuchadnezzar or for show out of peer pressure (proof) such as Annias, cannot produce righteous works. Righteous works must be done in the image of God's grace, of unmerited favor, lacking any self interest - like the Holy Spirit directs attention to God the Father. It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats, getting us to the Bema seat, it is any surviving righteous works (including personal sacrifices even up to husband, wife, and children mentioned in the Gospels) from that judgement for which we get reward or recompense, where every tear is dried and we will be shown the room Christ has prepared for us in His Father's mansion.

    If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter.

    By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done.

    Grat***ude wants to give, grat***ude can come from being released from the burden of debt those that aren't grateful get their debt reinstated. works programs such as after all we can do are not selfless and lead to boasting or never being good enough AND that's the point of grace - you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored, born again as it were to do righteous works. What dead man can do righteous work in the eyes of God?

    I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

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    MacG---I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally).
    While I find this kind of response typical of the faith alone--my question would be--why could a person not obey Jesus Christ out of gra***ude? Why does it have to be guilt? Why did these obey God:

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    Is your message here that all who receive of God's grace through their obedience to Him, does so through shame?

    In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save.
    While the LDS would agree that works, faith, belief, trust, etc. does not save one--the scriptures do show that obedience to Jesus Christ(faith in Christ) is the basis that God gives His grace unto life, Paul included:


    Romans2:5-11--"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11For there is no respect of persons with God."



    James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed.
    You're right--and the difference between dead faith and living faith is the result.

    That's a difference a little more intrinsic than the faith alone are willing to admit.

  24. #24
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

    These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

    James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

    But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."




    How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:


    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
    The thief on the cross hasn't been effected by the statements of mere men.. That is all you have done here is quote men and try to make the Church responsible for their teachings.. We are NOT.. We take our theology from the Bible holding it and it alone to be the standard for out faith.. You can quote men forever it makes no difference. Find in the Bible that the thief would not always be with Jesus.

    According to the teaching of Jesus SHEOL was divided into two locations One for the wicked and the other "Abraham's Bosom" for those who were righteous in God.. That is where Jesus went and proclaimed across the gulf that justice is satisfied in Him and that they who would not believe were receiving their just reward.. That was the preaching, not the gospel according to Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    We are saved when we place our faith in Christ.
    Yes, I know you do not want to acknowledge that the thief actually did something...you have made that clear.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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