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Thread: Do Works Contribute to or Confirm Salvation?

  1. #1
    alanmolstad
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    Default Do Works Contribute to or Confirm Salvation?

    http://www.equip.org/articles/do-wor...istian-books-2





    edit, in case you want to talking about other topics?..thats fine here too....like the use of the IGNORE SETTING.....

    Ha ha...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-20-2015 at 09:20 AM.

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    I wouldn't say that "contribute" is the correct word. It's like saying one can contribute or add to Grace thereby making us MORE saved by Grace.
    I would say that Grace only becomes effectual in our life as we exercise our faith in God by doing the works commanded by The Lord.

    However that's besides the point, this whole idea either way in the hands of a Faith Aloner is a useless and contradictory point. I can prove this with just a few words and not like the nonsensical longwinded article you linked to.

    If works has truely nothing to do salvation.... Then it is impossible for works to confirm or deny one's salvation, let alone contribute to it!


    (Unless you believe that works performed after you are saved are required?)
    Last edited by theway; 02-12-2015 at 08:43 PM.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Have to agree w/theway, “contribute” doesn’t quite identify that expression of faith initially. Possibly, in a circular reasoning, “confirm” could begin to convince due to witnessing or teaching with patience.

    So initially, neither would apply. Over time, both could apply.

    Tricky question.

    Mike.

  4. #4
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Have to agree w/theway,
    I have theway on ignore...

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I have theway on ignore...
    Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

    Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

    Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.
    I warned em....(they never listen)

  7. #7
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I warned em....(they never listen)
    But the fruit of the Spirit is
    • love,
    • joy,
    • peace,
    • patience,
    • kindness,
    • goodness,
    • faithfulness,
    • gentleness,
    • self-control;

    against such things there is no law.(Gal 5:22,23)

    ““The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” (Luke 10:2)

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    like i said.....i warned them....i always warn people.
    (just ask Sir-Billy-theway)

    but if a person ends up on my ignore list its only because they wanted to be there......earned their ticket they did...






    I think they must think Im kidding?
    (Im not kidding)



    Perhaps at the time they did not take my warnings (I always warn many times by the way) serious enough?
    Maybe they felt that because there are so few guests here on this forum that this somehow means that I would/could not dare be serious about my warnings of their poor manners?
    (I was serious)


    Anyway, once they get on my IGNORE LIST thats it, their posts no longer appear on my screens and as far as I'm concerned such people no longer exist.


    On a related note:
    As far as why it so very important for people to be serious about what they allow on their own screens, it is because it is the only way to go.

    Its the only means we have to show everyone on any forum we a member of that having their words appear on our computer screens is not a God-given "right" they enjoy!

    ....its a something they should feel lucky to have happen.....

    If a person has their words on my screen it means that they have good manners, show respect, are kind to others, and are not a goon or a bully to others.
    If your words are being read by me you can know that of all things, your words are a very good reflection on yourself, your parents, and the religion the you claim.

    But trust me, Poor manners gets people the boot and I NEVER allow them to return to posting on my screen.
    ...They understand their poor manners cost them...

    and that they only have themselves to blame.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-19-2015 at 07:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Glad to talk with you, ,and glad I can.

    Amazing, someone with such a long tally of comments to their credit and they up and get the boot.
    I think you misunderstand.. The fact that I am on alanmolstad's self created ignore list is a positive, not a negative. My posts are for Lurkers, not for him anyway. If I respond to his posts I only have Lurkers reading it in mind.
    In fact, I have begged to be put on his ignore list. However we all know that he really reads our posts anyway.
    It's a little game AntiMormons play. They pretend by putting people on ignore that they are above all the argument and debate, but in reality it is because they lose all the arguments and debates is why they ignore us.
    Last edited by theway; 02-19-2015 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    like i said.....i warned them....i always warn people.
    (just ask Sir-Billy-theway)

    but if a person ends up on my ignore list its only because they wanted to be there......earned their ticket they did...






    I think they must think Im kidding?
    (Im not kidding)



    Perhaps at the time they did not take my warnings (I always warn many times by the way) serious enough?
    Maybe they felt that because there are so few guests here on this forum that this somehow means that I would/could not dare be serious about my warnings of their poor manners?
    (I was serious)


    Anyway, once they get on my IGNORE LIST thats it, their posts no longer appear on my screens and as far as I'm concerned such people no longer exist.


    On a related note:
    As far as why it so very important for people to be serious about what they allow on their own screens, it is because it is the only way to go.

    Its the only means we have to show everyone on any forum we a member of that having their words appear on our computer screens is not a God-given "right" they enjoy!

    ....its a something they should feel lucky to have happen.....

    If a person has their words on my screen it means that they have good manners, show respect, are kind to others, and are not a goon or a bully to others.
    If your words are being read by me you can know that of all things, your words are a very good reflection on yourself, your parents, and the religion the you claim.

    But trust me, Poor manners gets people the boot and I NEVER allow them to return to posting on my screen.
    ...They understand their poor manners cost them...

    and that they only have themselves to blame.
    Are you REALLY SO ARROGANT to think that YOUR participation in the conversation here is so TERRIBLY important that you are 'punishing' someone if you refuse to talk to them?

    NOT a 'Godly at***ude' if you ask me. Just a LOUSY WITNESS.

  11. #11
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Are you REALLY SO ARROGANT to think that YOUR participation in the conversation here is so TERRIBLY important that you are 'punishing' someone if you refuse to talk to them?

    NOT a 'Godly at***ude' if you ask me. Just a LOUSY WITNESS.
    I did try to warn them....

    But they only have themselves to blame.

    Bad manners are expensive....
    Im sure if they would have felt that I was worth talking to in the future at all that they would not have kept doing the one thing they knew full well would get themselves on my IGNORE list.

    So thats "theway" they wanted it, so they gets it.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-19-2015 at 04:26 PM.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    On a positive note, it is nice to hear that indeed there is some form of restraint here. But speaking of ignore, with that level of watch-dogging, I think that would properly be placed in the hands of them who are found to be “beyond reproach”. What can we expect to happen if you have been found to err here or there somehow? I mean com’n, that really was quite a bit of stiff-arm commentary even if it may have been fully warranted, I don’t know, I wasn't there.

    Generally speaking, if I got a chance to delve on anything that strikes our interest, , I mean anybody, , you and me, can every commenter here honestly say “I value that”, without the long awaited pre-conceived chance to push the red-hot ****on. Yeah, I’ve failed that, and true, it’s a terrible witness when it happens. Or is this what is thought of as a healthy dialog during debate?

    But ignore does have its place. I see here added interest in this topic with others joining, but nary a flinch towards my ref of Gal 5. I wonder why? Maybe that seemed out of place – goodness me – I hope not!

    So, what’s wrong with asking if it’s me that needs to get up to speed to Gal 5? The laborers are few here. I’m not saying its wrong to think "I fair ok". What I’m saying is to do a gut-check of ch5 and step out of the disputable “box” every now and then. Cause I have seen some heavily circular bouts in the past with neither willing to allow any rope whatsoever. This is what you want to be known by as your life in Christ?

    Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    On a positive note, it is nice to hear that indeed there is some form of restraint here. But speaking of ignore, with that level of watch-dogging, I think that would properly be placed in the hands of them who are found to be “beyond reproach”. What can we expect to happen if you have been found to err here or there somehow? I mean com’n, that really was quite a bit of stiff-arm commentary even if it may have been fully warranted, I don’t know, I wasn't there.

    Generally speaking, if I got a chance to delve on anything that strikes our interest, , I mean anybody, , you and me, can every commenter here honestly say “I value that”, without the long awaited pre-conceived chance to push the red-hot ****on. Yeah, I’ve failed that, and true, it’s a terrible witness when it happens. Or is this what is thought of as a healthy dialog during debate?

    But ignore does have its place. I see here added interest in this topic with others joining, but nary a flinch towards my ref of Gal 5. I wonder why? Maybe that seemed out of place – goodness me – I hope not!

    So, what’s wrong with asking if it’s me that needs to get up to speed to Gal 5? The laborers are few here. I’m not saying its wrong to think "I fair ok". What I’m saying is to do a gut-check of ch5 and step out of the disputable “box” every now and then. Cause I have seen some heavily circular bouts in the past with neither willing to allow any rope whatsoever. This is what you want to be known by as your life in Christ?

    Mike.
    I have to agree with you Mike. I have noticed that many people see this as a contest as if there were an audience somewhere watching and all that matters is wining the argument. In reality it is a privilege and responsibility to share the Gospel and discuss all of God's word but our prideful nature often rules our discussions.
    I've said many things I wish I could un-say, but each one is a lesson. It's good to be a workman who is confident and unashamed but it's also wise to listen and answer in a way that doesn't cause wrath. Easy to say, hard to do.

  14. #14
    alanmolstad
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    The other day a guest or two shows up here we had not seen for years.

    Right away they get into a huge argument with another new guest that also had not been seen here in years.
    They seem to be in the middle of bickering about things that are not even slightly connected to the topic they had jumped into the middle of.
    In fact, they were bickering about issues that had nothing to do with this forum.

    They both started to post links to different topics on the CARM message forum.
    Some of the topics were locked, and seem to have been locked for a long-long time?

    So I post to one of the people a suggestion that they try to get along and also try to keep their posts a bit more centered on the topic at hand.
    My attempt to get them to show some respect and play by the rules failed.

    They took the argument to the next level and both started to post very personal attacks against each other.
    Again, nothing they were talking about any anything to do with this forum.

    After a while, when it became clear this was headed down hill to the point where the MODs would need to interfere, I suggested to both of them that they might try to use their IGNORE LIST to keep from saying things that were against the rules, or caring so much what the other person said.

    But they kept going at it.

    My suggestion also failed.

    I did a little checking in their past posts on the forum.
    I went back into the history of their old posts and saw that no matter how far back into the records I went the same two or three people were bickering and getting each other BANNED going back years!

    I gave up checking their old post histories back around the year 2011, but as far as I could see even way back then the same two or 3 people were getting BANNED at CARM, returning to this forum, fighting with each other, getting very personal, and ending up BANNED here too over and over..

    When I learned this fact, (That these people are nuts) I suggested that had they used the IGNORE setting YEARS AGO, on this forum or at CARM, that they would not get into such painful-personal fights with the same people year after year.

    I was criticized for even bringing up the IGNORE list.

    Clearly fighting....Clearly making smart-mouthed personal attacks on each other.....Clearly getting BANNED over and over.....was both their goals!


    They think this is the way they show their faith.
    They think this is how they bring others to their side.
    They both think this is how you win souls.
    They both criticized me for suggesting they the use of the IGNORE LIST to end this.


    They both were wrong.
    They both were crazy.
    They both acted like children bickering over a toy.

    Oh and yes, they got banned...(oh and by the way, that trick is hard to do on this forum )


    This is why I dont even finish reading the posts that criticize my use of the IGNORE LIST!


    I have a few people on my IGNORE LIST that earned their place there only after all my attempts to get them to keep the rules had failed, and the result in every case is ......peace.

    No more fighting...
    No more pointless arguments...
    No more personal attacks...
    No more endless attempts to get the other person to admit their were wrong...
    No more temptations to get down in the mud with them...
    No more being in danger of being BANNED from here myself...
    No more trouble from the other person at all...

    Its like they stopped existing...


    I post here on topics that are of interest to me.
    I dont come here to "Win souls"
    I dont come here to "Win" the argument.
    I dont come here to win anything.
    I dont come here to learn anything from anybody.

    I just like to come here to write on topics that are of interest to me...because I like to write.
    I like to write because it allows me to bring out the best in myself...
    I like to write because I am able to bring out a deeper personal understanding of things I might not have totally thought though in the past.
    I believe that the more I write on a topic the less chance I will have in the future of regretting something I may have said to others, because my being able to write on a topic here helps me learn a topic in a deeper way.

    People that dont know what they are talking about get angry, get used to ending a conversation with hate-filled words.
    I can stay calm here, because I dont have to win.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-20-2015 at 08:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I did try to warn them....

    But they only have themselves to blame.

    Bad manners are expensive....
    Im sure if they would have felt that I was worth talking to in the future at all that they would not have kept doing the one thing they knew full well would get themselves on my IGNORE list.

    So thats "theway" they wanted it, so they gets it.

    Sorry, but you are not that important imho. If I put YOU on my own ignore list, you would be residing there all by yourself. But then again, you are not all that interesting.



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    Default Is it arrogant hypocricy?

    Aaawww, he doesn't like being challenged by those who ask HARD questions. As for being banned on CARM, I have been banned about 3 times in the many years I have posted there. Every time it was for posting HARD things to 'oneness pentecostals,' another cultic group that calls themselves 'Christian.' The person who whined then had himself been banned many times each year, sometimes for very long times.

    If you have nothing HARD to say, you don't get banned.

    You SAY you don't like fighting, personal attacks, endless attempts to get the other person to admit 'their' wrong, yet you do ALL of those things. Isn't that a little hypocritical of you?

    Your posts sometimes have decent points to ponder, but your participation is too much about YOU and not enough about the issues at hand, imho. Your whine about how others post and how you stick them into your ignore list has nothing to do of course, with the OP at all. You would rather whine about YOU than to address the OP.

    BTW, I have been posting with SOME regularity in this forum ever since I began a year or two ago. AND of course YOU have been arguing with the same people for a long time too, haven't you?

    Yes, we KNOW you don't come here to LEARN anything. You just come here to spout your own stuff and hope you are not challenged.

    But that doesn't seem to be what these forums are about. . .

  17. #17
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post

    Sorry, but you are not that important imho. If I put YOU on my own ignore list, you would be residing there all by yourself. But then again, you are not all that interesting.



    "You would be...all by yourself"


    I think that is the reason people just don't believe me when I tell them that to be on my computer screen they better all follow the rules or else.

    They must think to themselves, "He would not dare", because 'they' are the ones that actually believe that "they" are so important to me that I cant get along without them.

    But as we have seen....I can get along just fine without them ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "You would be...all by yourself"


    I think that is the reason people just don't believe me when I tell them that to be on my computer screen they better all follow the rules or else.

    They must think to themselves, "He would not dare", because 'they' are the ones that actually believe that "they" are so important to me that I cant get along without them.

    But as we have seen....I can get along just fine without them ...
    Your 'he would not dare' nonsense seems to be a two-edged sword. I have no difficulty getting along without YOUR arrogance and complaining. If you don't like it here, you can always leave.

    By the way, BIBLICALLY the concept of CHRISTIAN good works FOLLOW AFTER salvation. We do not 'get' our salvation based upon the 'good works' we do; we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone. You cannot find a single 'good work' you can do to save your soul.

    The OP, remember?

  19. #19
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]
    You SAY you don't like fighting, personal attacks, endless attempts to get the other person to admit 'their' wrong, yet you do ALL of those things.
    I never make personal attacks.....ever.
    I do disagree with people, but I always maintain good manners, and never start spitting on the other person.

    I set a good example.

    I try to promote my own views, rather than ripping down the other person in a personal way.
    I try to disagree with the other person's "ideas" and not with them as a person.

    If Im talking with a guy in a CULT, then I try to keep my remarks about the CULT and the CULT's teachings and history.
    I dont want to start talking about "John Doe's teachings, or his personal history"

    I do watch how some people do this personal attacking of each other all the time, and when I try to suggest a different way, they support their own bad manners and rule breaking by telling me that rules and good manners dont matter when they are "Witnessing to lost people"

    I guess their thinking is that they can break the rules as long as they have God on their side?

    Over the years I have seen a lot of guests try to hide behind the Cross as they broke the rules.
    Patting themselves on the back when they list all the times and situations where they themselves have been banned for breaking the rules.

    What do I think of that kind of "Being right makes it ok" way of thinking?

    History shows us, it has not worked out all that well for them...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-20-2015 at 09:33 AM.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    .

    The OP, remember?
    Yes I do, and I went just now fixed it .........


    so we can now talk about anything you want...

    Ha ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes I do, and I went just now fixed it .........


    so we can now talk about anything you want...

    Ha ha
    I saw your 'fix.' Do you REALLY THINK we have to have YOUR permission to talk about other things? YOU were whining about your 'ignore list' BEFORE your 'fix.'

    Your arrogance and hypocrisy are showing, imho.

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    just wanted you to feel comfortable as the topic I wanted to write about evolved...

    you are welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    just wanted you to feel comfortable as the topic I wanted to write about evolved...

    you are welcome!
    I am ALWAYS comfortable, warm, and happy when I post to you or anyone else. Your 'fixes' to your OPs don't make a whit of difference. Sorry, but your arrogance is showing again. . .

    But who cares? At all?

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    just wanted you to feel comfortable as the topic I wanted to write about evolved...

    you are welcome!
    What a guy

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    alan posted:

    I never make personal attacks.....ever.
    I do disagree with people, but I always maintain good manners, and never start spitting on the other person.

    I set a good example.

    I try to promote my own views, rather than ripping down the other person in a personal way.
    I try to disagree with the other person's "ideas" and not with them as a person.

    If Im talking with a guy in a CULT, then I try to keep my remarks about the CULT and the CULT's teachings and history.
    I dont want to start talking about "John Doe's teachings, or his personal history"

    I do watch how some people do this personal attacking of each other all the time, and when I try to suggest a different way, they support their own bad manners and rule breaking by telling me that rules and good manners dont matter when they are "Witnessing to lost people"

    EVERYTHING I do is a witness to others of what I believe. IF I WERE A FALLING DOWN DRUNK lying in the gutter, I would be a witness of what I believed, but a LOUSY WITNESS FOR JESUS since people KNOW I am a Christian.

    I guess their thinking is that they can break the rules as long as they have God on their side?

    Did Jesus make the CARM rules? OR YOURS? Naah.

    Paul and Silas seem to have broken some rules too! They were put in jail for it, whipped for it, etc etc etc.

    Over the years I have seen a lot of guests try to hide behind the Cross as they broke the rules.

    The cross is a WONDERFUL place to hide behind! I'll take the CROSS to hide behind LONG before I would ever consider hiding behind joey smith, baal, or any of the mormon 'authority' junk.

    Patting themselves on the back when they list all the times and situations where they themselves have been banned for breaking the rules.

    Jesus was banned for breaking the rules; He was hung on a cross.
    Most of the Apostles died horrible deaths; banned as martyrs for braking the rules too.


    What do I think of that kind of "Being right makes it ok" way of thinking?

    Being right SURE BEATS BEING WRONG in the matter of salvation!

    History shows us, it has not worked out all that well for them...


    It hasn't worked out badly. After all they ARE IN HEAVEN NOW, not in he** where most of smith's followers are headed.

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