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  1. #1
    dberrie2000
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    Default The Thief

    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

  2. #2
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    The thief had faith in Christ and was saved as evidenced by the fact that he was with Christ in Paradise that day. ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.

  3. #3
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The thief had faith in Christ and was saved ...
    But that is just the point--neither the Bible nor the Early Church Fathers believed that there was not any faith without works:

    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

    But how do these statements differ from the scriptures:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."



    ECF's writings are not scripture DB but you already know that.
    The wide agreement of the ECF's on this point is worthy of consideration, no matter what one may believe about what cons***utes scripture.

  4. #4
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    The ECF have nothing to say in these tidbits about the status of the thief on the cross. We have only the words of Jesus that He would be with him is Paradise. We have the statement of the Bible that He took captivity captive. Paul telling us by the Holy Spirit that when he died he would be with Jesus, tells us that Abraham's bosom is not empty and all the faithful dead are with God in heaven.. The thief is still with the Lord and is now before Him at the throne of grace.. THINK!!! IHS jim

  5. #5
    akaSeerone
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    Did you read Billy Ray's latest post in the "Where are all the faith alone" thread?

    That works here to.

    Andy

  6. #6
    dberrie2000
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    dberrie----Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees
    (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    James Banta---The ECF have nothing to say in these tidbits about the status of the thief on the cross.


    I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

    These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

    James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

    But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


    We have only the words of Jesus that He would be with him is Paradise.
    How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:


    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

  7. #7
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
    DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?

  8. #8
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    DB do you believe that when the thief died he was with Christ in Paradise? Or do you believe that the verse about this is wrong?
    I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.

  9. #9
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I believe that Paradise was used to denote the spirit world--the exact place where Christ was after death, as described by the Bible-- was the spirit prison.
    Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?

  10. #10
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you believe that the verse is wrong as written? Was it mistranslated do you think?
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 11-27-2011 at 12:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise.
    You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

    Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.

  12. #12
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You mean that when he said paradise he really meant spirit prison. That is a significant difference don't you think?

    Anyway you can disbelieve the verse as written. But I can't.
    I know. But you have a dog in the fight.

    I was wondering--how much trouble would you have in disbelieving this verse:

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

  13. #13
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I know. But you have a dog in the fight.
    You are the one who is changing the verse not me.

  14. #14
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--
    Abraham wasn't baptized yet you believe he was saved. Do you believe that he needed a proxy baptism for the dead for him to be saved?

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here.
    What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved. Why does he need a opportunity after death?

  16. #16
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What does this have to do with the thief? The thief had faith and was saved.
    And what is the evidence that faith is independent of obedience to Christ?


    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

    Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.
    Do you define faith without works?

  17. #17
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.
    Can you show me any NT member who went INSIDE the Temple proper which is the Holy of Holies or the Holy Place?

  18. #18
    neverending
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

    db: CFR please! There are NO second chances. You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.

  19. #19
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: CFR please! There are NO second chances.
    And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?


    You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH
    Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.

    If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so?


    and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.
    LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.

  20. #20
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?
    Does God need ordinances to save?

  21. #21
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Does God need ordinances to save?
    I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism that you believe is not obedience to Jesus's commands, and what it is about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace?

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.
    OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?

  23. #23
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?
    The Bible teaches such things as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins(faith in Christ)--following Christ--enduring to the end--obedience to the doctrines and commandments of God, etc.

    Which the faith alone deny is necessary for salvation.

    Again, Billyray--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

  24. #24
    James Banta
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    [dberrie2000;105770]And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?
    This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:
    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

    God judge what each man is judged by.. What the Bible says is there is no forgiveness outside Jesus. That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.. Each man is given his lifetime to come to Christ and that is all, after that the judgement..

    Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.
    There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in.. See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus. yes the Church's Apostles are living just as the Patriarchs are living:
    Mark 12:26-27
    have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
    He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


    I agree with the words Jesus spoke here "ye therefore do greatly err" for like the Patriarchs the Apostles are His Apostles and He is the God of the living not the dead..

    If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so
    No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one.. And only God can add members to it.
    Acts 2:48
    ...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration.. If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..

    LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.
    I have shown you again and again from the Law that you are NOT obedient to the commandments of God. You aren't even obedient to the commandments of Jesus in the NT.. So any hope of your salvation by obedience is GONE.. Yes mormonism does teach it as the way to life but that is wrong.. Such laws are given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.. We see that we have failed to measure up to those commandments and seek shelter in His grace through faith.. Those that do so are the true Church.. The ONE TRUE CHURCH..

    You are right we must be obedient but I have fail to be obedient, and worse, you have also failed but cling onto the idea that adding clean water to sewage will make it clean. There is no forgiveness of sin in obedience. Forgiveness of sin required sacrifice of the blood of the innocent. Only in the Blood of the spotless Lamb of God is it found. Only in the imputed righteousness of that Lamb on us are we righteous..

    Just where does your partial obedience bring real righteousness? IT DOESN'T.. Mormonism has made up a new Jesus. A different Jesus from that God the Church has already received. The mormon Jesus is that Jesus, different in that He became a god, different in that he was a creation of another created god, different in that He cleanses his believers in water and not his blood and then demands what the flesh can not give, obedience.. This is why the Church sees mormonism as a cult and a false religion. Because the Jesus they hold to be the Jesus found in the Bible is that man made invention..That is not the Church found in the NT.. Mormonism is the three dollar bill of Christianity.. IHS jim

  25. #25
    dberrie2000
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    dberrie---And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:
    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
    Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

    Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?


    James Banta---There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in..
    No James--there was not many churches that the one church gathered in--there was one church--period. There might have been many congregations--but only one church.

    And that one church was headed by Jesus Christ--and founded upon the foundation of the living apostles. That was the only church in the NT.

    Do you believe that one could have rejected that church--and formed their own--and still have had salvation?

    See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus.
    Then that is evidence there are not "many churches" that make up the one church.

    No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one..
    Yes, James--there is one that can start a true church--and that is Christ alone. And those who are directed by Him to direct that church have heavenly manifestations, which none of the churches of today claim.

    And only God can add members to it.[
    Acts 2:48
    ...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration..
    And this is how they were added:

    Acts2:38-42--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

    Something the faith alone deny is even true.


    If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..
    And anyone who denies that there isn't any obedience to Jesus Christ that is necessary for His grace unto life--isn't that church.

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