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Thread: The Thief

  1. #226
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?
    Born of water = physical birth

    Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

  2. #227
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Born of water = physical birth

    Born of the spirit = spiritual birth
    Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.

    Was Paul wrong also? :

    Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    When Paul referred to water baptism to our walk in the newness of life--how do you relate that to being "Born Again"?

  3. #228
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.
    Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.

  4. #229
    dberrie2000
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    dberrie---Again--that places only half of Christ's being born of water and of the Spirit as a spiritual rebirth.

    Was Paul wrong also? :

    Romans6:3-4--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    When Paul referred to water baptism to our walk in the newness of life--how do you relate that to being "Born Again"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.


    Justin Martyr

    "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


    Irenaeus

    "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

    Tertullian

    "[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

    Hippolytus

    "The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

    The Recognitions of Clement

    "But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).


    Cyprian of Carthage

    "[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).


    Council of Carthage VII

    "And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).


    Cyril of Jerusalem

    "Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).


    Athanasius

    "[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).



    John Chrysostom



    "[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).


    The Apostolic Cons***utions

    "Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be ****ed’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Cons***utions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

  5. #230
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Justin Martyr
    Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?


    Born of water = physical birth

    Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

    Now can you show me that this is wrong from the Bible?

  6. #231
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Because spiritual birth is not being born of water.

    dberrie----Justin Martyr

    "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


    Irenaeus

    "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

    Tertullian

    "[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

    Hippolytus

    "The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

    The Recognitions of Clement

    "But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).


    Cyprian of Carthage

    "[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).


    Council of Carthage VII

    "And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).


    Cyril of Jerusalem

    "Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).


    Athanasius

    "[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).



    John Chrysostom



    "[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).


    The Apostolic Cons***utions

    "Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be ****ed’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Cons***utions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

    Yes.

    And I believe it is a mistake to deny what the Early Church Fathers have to say on this subject--especially since they all agree. Even Martin Luther--the so called Father of Protestantism, agreed that without water baptism--one could not be saved.

  7. #232
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes.
    I don't so you are wrong as usual.

  8. #233
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post


    Born of water = physical birth

    Born of the spirit = spiritual birth

    Now can you show me that this is wrong from the Bible?
    Bump for DB

  9. #234
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray
    Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?
    [quote] dberrie---Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't so you are wrong as usual.
    You have done poorly in defending your positions. They are not Biblical--they are rationalized in the form of prescriptive and descriptive explanations.

  10. #235
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Billyray
    Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?


    dberrie---Yes.
    Why don't you prove that I take my doctrine from non scriptural sources like you claim.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you really think that I take my beliefs from non scriptural sources?

    Billyray--often when I ask you the hard questions, you go to non-scriptural sources to answer me.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #237
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray--often when I ask you the hard questions, you go to non-scriptural sources to answer me.
    Are you going to prove your claim that my theology comes from non scriptural sources or not?

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Are you going to prove your claim that my theology comes from non scriptural sources or not?
    Scripturally, the word for water in Hebrew recognizes a rebirth such as with Noah and the flood and with the Israelites as they p***ed through the Red Sea. We have discussed this before---you seem to ignore it.

    We also know that Christ was baptized by water.

    We also know that the apostles taught to repent and be baptized.

    I am not sure why you think you can dissect being "born of the water and the spirit" to mean something different.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #239
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Scripturally, the word for water in Hebrew recognizes a rebirth such as with Noah and the flood and with the Israelites as they p***ed through the Red Sea. We have discussed this before---you seem to ignore it.
    But we were talking about the p***age in John 3. How about showing me in John 3 where it speaks about water baptism.

  15. #240
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    We also know that the apostles taught to repent and be baptized.
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.
    Billyray----you are trying to disect this one scripture when clearly there is a precedent set by Christ Himself. Why do you argue against it so?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  17. #242
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray----you are trying to disect this one scripture when clearly there is a precedent set by Christ Himself. Why do you argue against it so?
    Christ doesn't say that water baptism is born of the spirit in John 3.

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Christ doesn't say that water baptism is born of the spirit in John 3.
    He shouldn't have to---He showed you by His example. If you can't understand His words after He showed you His actions, then look to His example of His actions.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #244
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.
    But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

  20. #245
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:
    But they are not the same. Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.

  21. #246
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    Do you believe someone has to be baptized in order to recieve the Holy Spirit?

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But they are not the same. Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.
    Billyray----does it ever occur to you that in order to make your point---you must actively ask us to ignore Christ's example, the early church teachings and other teachings in the Bible?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #248
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    ---you must actively ask us to ignore Christ's example
    Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?

  24. #249
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.
    dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But they are not the same.
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

    Water baptism is water baptism. Born of the spirit is born of the spirit or born again. And you have yet to show me water baptism in John 3.
    One cannot show anything that the other refuses to accept.

    That all the Early Church Fathers agree that it was talking about water batism as to St John3:5 is a powerful witness.

    Billyray--your lone witness is nothing to theirs. Some of them were taught at the feet of the living apostles of that day--to pit yourself against them is nothing but pride.

    They all agree, Billyray--the "water" in St John 3:5 was water baptism.

    And there witness has a second damming witness to yours--they testified that it was the point of regeneration--and that none could enter into the kingdom of heaven without it.

    Sorry--but your request to prove to you something that you already have your mind made up about is nothing to their witness--puny, indeed.

  25. #250
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.
    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

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