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Thread: The Thief

  1. #251
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?
    You just changed the goalposts. Here is your statement:

    Originally Posted by Billyray
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.
    You just switched the topic from the spirit being connected to water baptism in the scriptures, to born again not meaning water baptism.

    How that converts to born again not speaking about water baptism is anybody's guess.

  2. #252
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Sorry--but your request to prove to you something that you already have your mind made up about is nothing to their witness--puny, indeed.
    You don't believe the writings of the ECF's are scripture nor do I. And I have told you I don't take my theology from non scriptural sources. If you have a case to make--make it from the Bible. That should be easy enough for you do, don't you think? But the fact that you have to run to sources outside the Bible tells me that you can't do it can you?

  3. #253
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Billyray
    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

    DB
    You just changed the goalposts. Here is your statement:
    I can ask you anything I want DB. Care to answer my question?

    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

  4. #254
    Billyray
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    Billyray
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

    dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Billyray
    But they are not the same.

    Db
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

    Billyray
    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

  5. #255
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I can ask you anything I want DB. Care to answer my question?

    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?
    Huh? Are you asking that as a joke--or are you serious?

    As I stated to you--the witness of the Early Church Fathers that I printed for you testify against you.

    They all agreed--the water in St John5:3 is water baptism--and they tied it to regeneration and eternal life--saying that no one could enter into life without it(as did Christ).

    Their witness is in unison--they all agreed with a strong witness that it was water baptism.

    Who do you believe you are to stand against their witness--of those, as a unit, that some sat at the feet of the living apostles, and were part of the Apostolic times?

    Who? Are you trying to get us to believe what fits your theology--and would dare to deny those things that they all testified to?

    Why? Because you believe your witness is more powerful? More convincing?

    Give it up, Billyray. It's offensive to hear and see that kind of pride.

  6. #256
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Huh? Are you asking that as a joke--or are you serious?
    My question is not a joke brother berrie.

    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?
    Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #258
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?
    You didn't answer my question

    Christ lived under the law does that mean that you follow Christ's example and live under the law?

  9. #259
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    My question is not a joke brother berrie.

    So then when it says born again in John 3 you realize that it is not speaking about water baptism?
    Billyray--considering what you and I have talked about, one would have to be almost joking to ask a question such as that of me.

    Born again in St John3:5 is definitely speaking about water baptism--that is a certainty for me.

    It was one thing the EC Fathers agreed on.

  10. #260
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Born again in St John3:5 is definitely speaking about water baptism--that is a certainty for me.
    Billyray
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

    dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Billyray
    But they are not the same.

    Db
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.

  11. #261
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Billyray
    But you realize that born of the spirit does not mean water baptism.

    dberrie---But that is also connected in the scriptures to repentance and water baptism:

    Billyray
    But they are not the same.

    Db
    I didn't state they were the same--I stated they were connected in the scriptures.
    What is your question here? I understand that born of the Spirit is not referring to water baptism. Born of water is. They are both connected in the scriptures. Together--they are the born again experience Christ referred to in St John3:5.

  12. #262
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    They are both connected in the scriptures. Together--they are the born again experience Christ referred to in St John3:5.
    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    What does it mean to be born of the flesh? Is this water baptism?

  13. #263
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    What does it mean to be born of the flesh? Is this water baptism?
    No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.

    The comment by Christ of concerning the--1) born of flesh and 2) Born of Spirit in v6 was not a divisional statement concerning Christ's being born of water and the Spirit--but a divisional statement differentiating Nicodemus' physical understanding, and Christ's spiritual rebirth--being born of the water and the Spirit.

  14. #264
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.
    Just like born of water is referring to the physical birth. Right?

  15. #265
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000
    No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Just like born of water is referring to the physical birth. Right?
    Please reread my post.

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Origen

    Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

    Gregory of Nyssa

    Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

    Jerome

    But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
    whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


    This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


    How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?
    You realize, of course, that Origen is not a father of the Church, right? He mutilated himself by castration. I think your sexual gods would frown on that.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  17. #267
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No. That means the physical birth that Nicodemus was referring to. It was not a reference to the water in the born again experience.
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    You answer doesn't make sense in context with the surrounding verses. There is no mention of water baptism but rather physical birth verse spiritual birth.

  18. #268
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    You realize, of course, that Origen is not a father of the Church, right?
    Origen ( /ˈɒrɪdʒən/; Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs), or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254),[1] was an early Christian Alexandrian scholar and theologian, and one of the most distinguished writers of the early Church. As early as the fourth century, his orthodoxy was suspect, largely because he believed in the pre-existence and apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, ideas acknowledged to be beyond the pale of Christianity.[2] Today he is generally regarded as one of the Church Fathers.[3][4]

    Origen is considered a Church Father by most--and one of the most brilliant theologians of his time. If you look up Church Father--you will find him listed among the early Church Fathers, for the main.

  19. #269
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    You answer doesn't make sense in context with the surrounding verses. There is no mention of water baptism but rather physical birth verse spiritual birth.
    What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.

    "Born again" forever excludes any possibility of a physical birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.


    So--let's do look at the surrounding verses:

    St John3:3-6--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    I color coded the scriptures to identify relative statements.


    Why would Jesus refer to being "born again"--then split it up it into a physical and spiritual?


    Early Church Fathers explained it that way, that is--that the water represented water baptism in the born again statement of Christ in John3:5--as my previous posts show.



    So--let's do a practical application--let's show what scriptures involve this "born again" process--which involves the water and the Spirit, me first:


    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

    Now--your turn. Seeing the importance, one must be able to see it taught, practiced, and performed throughout the Biblical NT history. Water baptism is found throughout the NT history. What scriptures have you to demonstrate the born again process?
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 06-03-2012 at 09:14 AM.

  20. #270
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.

    "Born again" forever excludes any possibility of a physical birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.


    So--let's do look at the surrounding verses:

    St John3:3-6--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    I color coded the scriptures to identify relative statements.
    Water baptism is nowhere to be found in this section of scripture. The only way that you would come up with this is to ***ume it into the p***age. The whole section compares physical birth with spiritual birth. Physical birth is mentioned in all of the verses. You also see th parallelism between verses 5 and 6 between physical birth and spiritual birth.

  21. #271
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
    Matthew 3
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

  22. #272
    Billyray
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    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind ****eth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Notice that there is not a single mention of water baptism in this entire pasaage. Then note at the end of verse 7 it mentions born again and goes on to describe it in verse 8. Do you see water baptism in verse 8 anywhere?

  23. #273
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Do you believe that Christ was baptized as part of the law of Moses when He went to the River Jordan and was baptized?
    The Old Covenant, ordinances and sacrifices, temple structure and furnishings pointed to Christ. Christ lived under the law and yes I do believe that his baptism was part of fulfiling the OT law.

  24. #274
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What does not make sense is that Jesus split His born again declaration into two parts--one physical and one spiritual.
    Christ didn't break born again into two parts. What are you talking about?

  25. #275
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Christ didn't break born again into two parts. What are you talking about?
    I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

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