The Thief

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So why do you ***ume that born again includes water baptism?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I know Jesus did not break His born again into a physical and a spiritual:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Originally Posted by Billyray

So why do you ***ume that born again includes water baptism?

Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

But it doesn't say that in the John 3 p***age which is the p***age we were speaking about.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Because it did:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Billyray

But it doesn't say that in the John 3 p***age which is the p***age we were speaking about.

It most certainly does:


St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It most certainly does:


St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Water baptism is not mentioned at all in this section of scripture. You are ***uming it into the text and it doesn't fit with the surrounding verses.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Water baptism is not mentioned at all in this section of scripture. You are ***uming it into the text and it doesn't fit with the surrounding verses.

The Early Church Fathers would beg to disagree, unanimously:


ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

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SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.

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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

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ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)



The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

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APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)

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[jdjhere]

DBerrie2000 and BillyRay- Do you two actually WORK A ***?? (Seems like you are here all the time... just saying...)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

DBerrie2000 and BillyRay- Do you two actually WORK A ***?? (Seems like you are here all the time... just saying...)

I retired after 40 years with the Government last week.

I don't usually spend that much time here--but it is storming here, and I cannot get out today--and I have been sick for a week.

So--probably will be around sometimes--but can't wait to get to my duties.

[Billyray]

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

Is there evidence he was not baptized?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Is there evidence he was not baptized?

There is no indication that the thief was baptized. Do you believe that he was baptized? If so what is the basis for this belief?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is no indication that the thief was baptized. Do you believe that he was baptized? If so what is the basis for this belief?

There is also no indication that he was not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

There is also no indication that he was not.

So is it your belief that the thief was baptized despite no evidence that he was?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So is it your belief that the thief was baptized despite no evidence that he was?

Is it your belief he wasn't in spite of the fact that there is no evidence that he wasn't?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Is it your belief he wasn't in spite of the fact that there is no evidence that he wasn't?

There is no evidence that the thief was baptized. If you believe that he was please give me some evidence for this.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is no evidence that the thief was baptized. If you believe that he was please give me some evidence for this.

And there was no evidence the thief was not baptized. Please give me your evidence that he was not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And there was no evidence the thief was not baptized. Please give me your evidence that he was not.

If you believe that he was baptized then the burden of proof rests with you to prove that.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you believe that he was baptized then the burden of proof rests with you to prove that.

Not any more than it rests with you to prove he wasn't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not any more than it rests with you to prove he wasn't.

There is nothing that says he was baptized but if you claim that he was then it is up to you to give me proof that this was the case.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is nothing that says he was baptized but if you claim that he was then it is up to you to give me proof that this was the case.

There is nothing that says that he was not baptized, but if you claim that he wasn't then it is up to you to give me the proof that this is the case.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

There is nothing that says that he was not baptized, but if you claim that he wasn't then it is up to you to give me the proof that this is the case.

Here was my post

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why was the thief saved given the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever baptized?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here was my post

And I state--what is your evidence that he was not baptized?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And I state--what is your evidence that he was not baptized?

". . .there is no evidence that he was ever baptized"

[alanmolstad]

The thief was saved just like we all are.
He repented of his sins, he turned o the Lord and confessed his faith.

This is a person finds the lord...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The thief was saved just like we all are.
He repented of his sins, he turned o the Lord and confessed his faith.

This is a person finds the lord...

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.