Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 LastLast
Results 301 to 325 of 423

Thread: The Thief

  1. #301
    TheSword99
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    in Acts 10: 44-48, we have saved people who obviously have the Holy Spirit. The unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit for they are an enmity of God. In this p***age, Peter is saying that these people were now Christians just like him. But guess what? They haven't gotten wet yet! Baptism comes later. Peter says because they've already received the Spirit, they can now be baptized. Thus regeneration before water baptism.

    The idea that regeneration follows faith, not baptism, is also reaffirmed in Acts 11:17-18 where Paul says:

    If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

    Notice there is no mention of baptism here, only repentance, faith, and salvation which leads to regeneration.

  2. #302
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Sword is correct.
    Unsaved people can not received the gift of the HS and so.....like it or not.....Being baptized has ZERO to do with the question of getting saved!

    You can get saved and not be within a million miles of a drop of water.

    The baptism of a Christian is for the church to witness, it is for the unbeliever so that there is an outward sign of the thing that has happened inside the person's heart.

    God does not want us to perform works as if they themselves carried some sort of magic....thats the difference between the truth Christian faith, and paganism.

    In Cults and in paganism you find a lot of teachings where the salvation of the person is left up to their works....
    This is why so many CULTS like Mormons and JWs are always so busy pushing their teachings...they are attempting to work their way into heaven/salvation.

    But the true Christian faith has a different idea about the path to salvation.

    We have to let go of our attempts to earn salvation, and rely completely on the finished work of the cross.
    This is why when Jesus was asked what people could do to work the works of God?....Jesus told them there is only one work of God that matters, that you "believe" in the Son.....

  3. #303
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Sword is correct.
    Unsaved people can not received the gift of the HS and so.....like it or not.....Being baptized has ZERO to do with the question of getting saved!

    You can get saved and not be within a million miles of a drop of water.

    The baptism of a Christian is for the church to witness, it is for the unbeliever so that there is an outward sign of the thing that has happened inside the person's heart.

    God does not want us to perform works as if they themselves carried some sort of magic....thats the difference between the truth Christian faith, and paganism.

    In Cults and in paganism you find a lot of teachings where the salvation of the person is left up to their works....
    This is why so many CULTS like Mormons and JWs are always so busy pushing their teachings...they are attempting to work their way into heaven/salvation.

    But the true Christian faith has a different idea about the path to salvation.

    We have to let go of our attempts to earn salvation, and rely completely on the finished work of the cross.
    This is why when Jesus was asked what people could do to work the works of God?....Jesus told them there is only one work of God that matters, that you "believe" in the Son.....
    I like the way I put this.
    It's some of my best writing...

  4. #304
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    In my Bible--this is what was taught for the remission of sins:


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSword99 View Post
    in Acts 10: 44-48, we have saved people who obviously have the Holy Spirit. The unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit for they are an enmity of God.
    Could you explain for us how Acts 10 somehow cancels out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? How the ordering arrangement somehow changes that? Where does it state that people are saved first--and then repent and are baptized for the remission of sins?

    In this p***age, Peter is saying that these people were now Christians just like him. But guess what? They haven't gotten wet yet! Baptism comes later.
    How does that somehow cancel out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? Peter makes this statement concerning the Gentiles in Acts10:


    Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)


    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


    Peter says because they've already received the Spirit, they can now be baptized. Thus regeneration before water baptism.
    Peter makes no such statement. In fact--here is what Peter states concerning water baptism:


    1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)


    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


    Sword--the Holy Ghost and water baptism is connected in Acts 10--and for good reason:


    John 3:5----King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    The idea that regeneration follows faith, not baptism, is also reaffirmed in Acts 11:17-18 where Paul says:

    If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

    Notice there is no mention of baptism here, only repentance, faith, and salvation which leads to regeneration.
    And where do you see any mention of Paul stating that regeneration happened prior to water baptism? Paul believed the same thing that was taught him:


    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Sword--the Early Church Fathers were unanimous in the fact they connected water baptism as the point of regeneration:


    ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

    Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

    ================================================== ========
    ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

    "And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

    ================================================== ======================

    TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

    A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

    ...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

    ================================================== ======================
    RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

    But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

    ================================================== ========
    ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

    [When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

    [It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
    (Letters 72[73]:21)

    ================================================== ======================
    ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

    For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

    This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

    ================================================== ======================
    ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

    The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

    You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

    ================================================== ========

  5. #305
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    The same question gets asked over and over and over......it's kinda a sign of being crazy if you keep asking the same question and somehow expect a different answer to 'pop" up...

    For the unknown-ith time, The Bible is very clear that you can become a Totally saved, Filled with the Spirit, Speaking with the gift, born again Christian, and not have gone near a drop of water.....



    Kinda screws-up the CULTS that teach that you have to do some type of 'work" to get saved I know.....

    That's just too bad!

  6. #306
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo

    Here is once again how Walter Martin answers the question of the importance of water baptism in the life of the believer.

  7. #307
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The same question gets asked over and over and over......it's kinda a sign of being crazy if you keep asking the same question and somehow expect a different answer to 'pop" up...

    For the unknown-ith time, The Bible is very clear that you can become a Totally saved, Filled with the Spirit, Speaking with the gift, born again Christian, and not have gone near a drop of water.....
    My Bible has salvation and water connected:


    John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Kinda screws-up the CULTS that teach that you have to do some type of 'work" to get saved I know.....
    Like walking in the light?


    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


    How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

  8. #308
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,853

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    My Bible has salvation and water connected:


    John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.




    Like walking in the light?


    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


    How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?

    Tell me, have you never studied imputation? Where belief is "reckoned" as righteousness? Here is one of the first biblical examples:


    Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
    Gen. 15:6 (what does that mean to you?)

    By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regnerates us. No phony Mormon priesthood can regenerate anybody, which is amply demonstrated here and elsewhere by the snarky, antichrist posts Mormons put up and their denial of the Gospel of Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus' Blood unto redemption.
    Last edited by Apologette; 04-08-2013 at 11:15 AM.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  9. #309
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does that somehow cancel out the fact that repentance and water baptism was taught for the remission of sins? Peter makes this statement concerning the Gentiles in Acts10:
    It cancels out your false ***ertions/beliefs about these p***ages. In Acts 10 those who heard Peter received the Holy Spirit prior to doing any works including baptism.

  10. #310
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---My Bible has salvation and water connected:


    John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Like walking in the light?


    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


    How does receiving God's grace in the NT differ from Abraham in the OT--they both lived under the gospel:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?
    What do you consider a rant about the above scriptures?

    Tell me, have you never studied imputation?
    Would that somehow change the above scriptures if I did?

    Where belief is "reckoned" as righteousness? Here is one of the first biblical examples:


    Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
    Gen. 15:6 (what does that mean to you?)
    It means that belief and obedience is connected. What is your evidence that obedience to Christ is not an integral component to belief in Christ?

    By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regnerates us. No phony Mormon priesthood can regenerate anybody, which is amply demonstrated here and elsewhere by the snarky, antichrist posts Mormons put up and their denial of the Gospel of Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus' Blood unto redemption.
    Would you make the same claim concerning the Early Church Fathers?



    ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

    Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

    ================================================== ========
    ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

    "And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

    ================================================== ======================

    TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

    A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

    ...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

    ================================================== ======================
    RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

    But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

    ================================================== ========
    ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

    [When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)

    [It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

    ================================================== ======================
    ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

    For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

    This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

    ================================================== ======================
    ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

    The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

    You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

    So, Apologette--were all the Early Church Fathers wrong?

  11. #311
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    It cancels out your false ***ertions/beliefs about these p***ages. In Acts 10 those who heard Peter received the Holy Spirit prior to doing any works including baptism.
    And in accordance with the observation of Peter:


    Acts 10:34-35----King James Version (KJV)


    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    But then--that is consistent with the scriptures--is it not?


    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

  12. #312
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And in accordance with the observation of Peter:
    What works did those who received the Holy Spirit do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

  13. #313
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    By the way, water baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace of the Holy Spirit Who alone regenerates us. ,.....
    50 Points for you!, for you have answered this correctly!

  14. #314
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    So, now that you've been suspended from CARM, you bring your rant here?

    .
    Are we the "drop back" website now?
    They get kicked out of there and have to drop back here and to chatting with me and you?

  15. #315
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    dberrie----And in accordance with the observation of Peter:


    Acts 10:34-35----King James Version (KJV)


    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    But then--that is consistent with the scriptures--is it not?


    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What works did those who received the Holy Spirit do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?
    How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


    Peter obviously believed the Gentiles of Acts 10 were obedient, or his statement would have been empty:


    Acts 10:33-35---King James Version (KJV)


    33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


    And Peter must they would have obeyed his command:



    Acts 10:45-48----King James Version (KJV)


    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


    How does that differ from Paul's command? :


    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

  16. #316
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    dberrie2000
    You are just asking the same question over and over....
    A question that both Billy and I have fully answered , each of us a few times.

    I suggest you allow the conversation to move on.

  17. #317
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    dberrie----How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

    Acts 5:32----King James Version (KJV)


    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


    Peter obviously believed the Gentiles of Acts 10 were obedient, or his statement would have been empty:


    Acts 10:33-35---King James Version (KJV)


    33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


    And Peter must they would have obeyed his command:



    Acts 10:45-48----King James Version (KJV)


    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


    How does that differ from Paul's command? :


    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)


    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    dberrie2000----You are just asking the same question over and over....
    A question that both Billy and I have fully answered , each of us a few times.

    I suggest you allow the conversation to move on.
    Please don't flatter yourself, Alan. A faith alone doctrine can't answer the Biblical verses above. You and Billyray can only attempt to rationalize them away. Any theology that attempts to teach a doctrine there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life will ever have any success with the above scriptures--or with the Bible. The Bible rejects any such notion.

    The scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--regardless of your supposed answers.

    As the Bible expressively teaches:


    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)


    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

  18. #318
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:
    Are you going to answer my question?

    What works did those who received the Holy Spirit (in Acts 10) do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

  19. #319
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The scriptures have God giving His grace to those who obey Him--regardless of your supposed answers.
    Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?

  20. #320
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?
    Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?


    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

  21. #321
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?
    Romans 4 is certainly more than just about Abraham's faith so as usual you are mistaken. Do you think it is possible to actually answer my question?

    Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?

  22. #322
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    What works are required for justification according to Romans 4:5?
    dberrie----Since Romans 4 is about Abraham's faith--shall we post his faith?


    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 4 is certainly more than just about Abraham's faith so as usual you are mistaken.
    Yes--and what I posted proves that. What is it about what James posted in relation to Abraham's faith that you disbelieve?


    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  23. #323
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo


    so what we see then in ACTS 2 is not a "order" of how people had to follow to get saved, Rather it's listing of things that "indicate' that you are a saved Christian.

    So what we need to do then is put Acts 2 next to the Content of ACTS 10 to understand the p***age correctly.

    For at ACTS 10 we find that people were saved and proved conclusive that they were saved and approved by God, yet had not been baptized!

    So the religions that teach that you have to be baptized before you can be saved are in error and disagree with the Bible.

  24. #324
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    so what Im saying is that the Thief was saved just like i was....he had faith in Christ.
    This is why the Bible tells us that the ONLY way we can be saved is by Grace though faith.

    Now there are some denominations that hold to the idea that it must be via baptism that all men are saved.
    The Catholic church teaches this as you may know...

    I was once in a debate with a Catholic on the question of his church teachings about the need to be baptized.
    This Catholic I was talking to told me over and over that you "had" to be baptized to be saved.....you "had" to be.

    However i opened up some of the books I have on Catholicism and I saw something else there that i shared with him.
    I found that even the Catholic church has a rule about people that wanted to be baptized but for whatever reason died before they were baptized.

    According to the official catholic church, if your heart was right and have faith in Jesus, and you were seeking to be baptized but were unable to be, then God will take this into account and you can be saved.

    I pointed out that if Baptism was always 100% needed to be saved, then the catholic church was in error to teach that the heart of the person who cant be baptized is all that matters.

    I pointed out that the moment the catholic church admitted that its really only your heart that matters, they have admitted that baptism is just an outward symbol of what has happened inside the person's heart....and this is in agreement with what Protestants teach too!

    So in fact, the catholic church also teaches that 'faith" is all that matters.....

  25. #325
    dberrie2000
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERoso what we see then in ACTS 2 is not a "order" of how people had to follow to get saved, Rather it's listing of things that "indicate' that you are a saved Christian.
    Acts2:38 was a command for all to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    God's grace for our obedience.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •