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Thread: The Thief

  1. #326
    alanmolstad
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    once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....as it tells the story of people who became believers and yet had not gone near water....

    thus the whole foundation of the concept that "baptism is only what saves" is built of a silly way to understand the text...LOL

  2. #327
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....

    John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Even Martin Luther taught that:



    "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

    SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

  3. #328
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Even Martin Luther taught that:

    "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

    SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
    No where in the context of Jesus teaching Nicodemus in John 3 is baptism even mentioned. It is birth and then only two births. One a natural birth and one a spiritual birth. All people have been born naturally, only the children of God have been born spiritually. Baptism is clearly mentioned in the next context after Jesus and His disciples go to Aenon near to Salim. Surely the Holy Spirit through John was able to use the word baptism if it was called for.. In the text you references it was NOT call for..

    Next you used 1 Peter 3:21 here is a better example of the real understanding of the text "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

    It is the "good conscience toward God" that makes us clean before God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, not the cleansing of the body in the bath water of baptism..

    As for every teaching that comes from a minister, they are as good as any other.. Martin Luther believed in infant baptism believing that saved the child, and that by sprinkling. Do you want to stand by that as a requirement? I had no idea that the LDS had adopted infant baptism as doctrine. This teaches the requirement for baptism like it teaches infant baptism. I reject both. You seem to accept both since you use it as evidence that baptism is required. I will believe what was given us directly from Jesus "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). He who believes in Him has everlasting Life..An infant is not capable of making a profession of faith. Jesus made that statement again "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:25-26).. Are only believers resurrected? No, so these word are speaking of eternal life not just mortality. When He said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die He was specking of eternal life. Both believers and nonbelievers will be resurrected. Never dying requires faith therefore it is more than mere resurrection. IHS jim

  4. #329
    alanmolstad
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    well said!

  5. #330
    alanmolstad
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    yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

    The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL

    But because Jesus was talking about the spirit, therefore we have a better understanding how men are saved...its only by GRACE though FAITH that men are saved!

    so all that the Bible teaches, and all that Jesus and his men taught is in full agreement with what we are saying here

  6. #331
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



    Even Martin Luther taught that:

    "Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

    SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    No where in the context of Jesus teaching Nicodemus in John 3 is baptism even mentioned. It is birth and then only two births. One a natural birth and one a spiritual birth.
    Jesus' "born again" was not two births--it involved only one. The term "born again" excludes even the possibility of the natural birth.


    John 3:3---King James Version (KJV)


    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


    The interjection of the natural birth was Nicodemus' misunderstanding.


    All people have been born naturally, only the children of God have been born spiritually.
    Which means that the natural birth has nothing to do with being "born again".

    Next you used 1 Peter 3:21 here is a better example of the real understanding of the text "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

    It is the "good conscience toward God" that makes us clean before God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, not the cleansing of the body in the bath water of baptism..
    That was Peter's point--water baptism was not a bath--but something that is more involved.

    Martin Luther believed in infant baptism believing that saved the child, and that by sprinkling. Do you want to stand by that as a requirement? I had no idea that the LDS had adopted infant baptism as doctrine. This teaches the requirement for baptism like it teaches infant baptism. I reject both.
    Regardless of what one accepts or rejects about infant baptism--all the ECF believed that water baptism was essential for salvation. That is one thing they all were united on.

  7. #332
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

    The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL
    I never considered the scriptures as silly:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  8. #333
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I never considered the scriptures as silly:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    You ignore the scriptures DB. Salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and works do not contribute. Those in this verse are justified the moment that they are converted (repentance and faith). If baptism where required for justification then certainly it would be included in the dozens of other verses that speak about justification/salvation, but they don't. Couple this with the fact that the thief was converted on the cross and was saved despite not doing any works. BTW if the Bible taught that we were saved by works in addition to faith I would have no problem with that and I would believe it. But it doesn't.

  9. #334
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post----yes....Jesus tells us that what is of the flesh is flesh, but what is of the spirit is spirit...

    The flesh is nothing....there is nothing that water can do to make you right with God...thinking so is silly...LOL

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I never considered the scriptures as silly:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You ignore the scriptures DB. Salvation takes place when we come to Christ by faith and works do not contribute.
    Then you might want to tell it to the authors of the Biblical NT--as they have God's grace going to those who obey Him:


    Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


    Those in this verse are justified the moment that they are converted (repentance and faith).
    That's good faith alone blather--but Acts2:38 has repentance AND water baptism for God's grace--the remission of sins.

    If baptism where required for justification then certainly it would be included in the dozens of other verses that speak about justification/salvation, but they don't.
    Sure they don't:


    Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)


    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

    BTW if the Bible taught that we were saved by works in addition to faith I would have no problem with that and I would believe it. But it doesn't.
    Sure it doesn't:


    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

  10. #335
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then you might want to tell it to the authors of the Biblical NT--as they have God's grace going to those who obey Him:
    Perhaps if you actually read the Bible you would know that our salvation does not depend on our works but rather by our faith in Christ.

  11. #336
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Perhaps if you actually read the Bible you would know that our salvation does not depend on our works but rather by our faith in Christ.
    Does the Bible teach that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:20 (King James Version)

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


    Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?

  12. #337
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Does the Bible teach that faith without works is dead?
    Absolutely it teaches that those who without faith do not naturally produce works, which is the point that James was making in James 2.

  13. #338
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?
    Dead faith = no faith.

    BTW God gives grace in many ways to believers and unbelievers.

  14. #339
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Could you tell us if you believe that His grace flows through dead faith?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Dead faith = no faith.
    Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?


    James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


    BTW God gives grace in many ways to believers and unbelievers.
    But not His salvational grace:


    Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)


    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

  15. #340
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?
    They do have something to do with salvation--works naturally follow after salvation. Which is what James is speaking about here.

  16. #341
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.
    dberrie---Then could you explain for us how the faith alone believe that works has nothing to do with salvation?


    James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    They do have something to do with salvation--works naturally follow after salvation.
    That statement is an exclusionary statement. If works did not appear until after the salvation occurred--then works had nothing to do with the inheritance of salvation.

    Again--could you explain this anomaly? :


    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.



    James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

  17. #342
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    [/B]


    That statement is an exclusionary statement. If works did not appear until after the salvation occurred--then works had nothing to do with the inheritance of salvation.

    Again--could you explain this anomaly? :
    Works don't contribute for salvation rather they naturally flow from salvation.

  18. #343
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Dead faith = no faith.



    James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Correct. Those who have faith will naturally produce works. Those who "claim" to have faith in this section of James do not have faith and thus are not saved that is why they do not naturally do good works.

  19. #344
    alanmolstad
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    we are saved by grace though faith,

    The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

    The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.

  20. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    we are saved by grace though faith,

    The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

    The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.
    What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?

  21. #346
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?
    are you sure you need to ask that question?

    They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

    John 14:3.......and where is that again?

  22. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    are you sure you need to ask that question?

    They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

    John 14:3.......and where is that again?
    Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

  23. #348
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.
    john 14:3.........

  24. #349
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.
    You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

    (I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-08-2014 at 06:09 PM.

  25. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

    (I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)
    I have no idea where paradise is in that verse, however we know for a fact it wasn't Heaven. Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.

    This is what happens when you go to the wrong Sunday School....

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