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Thread: The Thief

  1. #351
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I have no idea where paradise is in that verse,.
    Yes, I get that...

  2. #352
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    . Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.
    You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?
    Pretty close

    Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days?

  4. #354
    alanmolstad
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    Luke 23:42 - Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

    So here we see the words "your Kingdom" and in the next verse we will learn where this "kingdom" is?



    Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

    So in this verse you learn that the "kingdom" is located "with" Jesus in "paradise"




    Ok cl***, lets sum that all up - The thief was going to be in the kingdom..... with .....Jesus .....in paradise.

    Thus we know where the thief is, and where Jesus was going, and the correct terms to use what dealing with this topic.



    Now lets find out more -
    John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



    "I go"...= we already learned that Jesus went with the thief to his kingdom also referred to as paradise.
    "a place" =The Kingdom, paradise
    "take you" =so we get to go to this very same place that both Jesus and the thief went to
    'with me" = this confirms that we will enter into the very same paradise that the thief entered with jesus on the day they both died.
    "be where I am" = This is the hope of all Christians, that when Jesus will return and take us to be with him forever in paradise, for that is the only place i wish to spend eternity....Where my Lord is that is where i wish to be forever.

  5. #355
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?
    As Christians we know that no one ascended to heaven except that Jesus came down from heaven.. Jesus did go to the place he had called Abraham's bosom where he proclaimed across the great gulf that those being held in hell were there of their own choices. The He (Jesus) took captivity those who were being held captive (Those waiting for Him held there in Paradise prison ) with Him to the presence of the Father..

    While hell (the grave) holds those outside Christ it isn't their final estate.. Hell it's self will also be cast into the Lake of Fire.. It is that place prepared for Satan and his angels where all the faithless will be ***igned eternally.. Did not Jesus clear Abrahan's bosom? Please tell me if I am out of step with the Bible? Would Paul have some special dispensation, of is Jesus also ****ed to this place? Paul saith that to Live is Christ to die is gain. That it is better for him to die and be with Jesus, but better for the Church if he stayed in the flesh.. So is Jesus bound in Abraham's bosom or is he with the Father in heaven? If He is with the Father is not Paul with the Father? If Paul is with the Father are not all those looking to God in faith with the Father? IHS jim

  6. #356
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Pretty close

    Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days?
    the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

    The flesh went into the earth
    The spirit went to the father in paradise.

    This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
    The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




    This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
    One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



    For more information I found you this video to look at -
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


    I think this video might help you in this study
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-09-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

    The flesh went into the earth
    The spirit went to the father in paradise.

    This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
    The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




    This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
    One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



    For more information I found you this video to look at -
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


    I think this video might help you in this study
    James seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

    Once again....

    Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

    You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

    Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

  8. #358
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    James seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

    Once again....

    Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

    You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

    Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.
    Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim

  9. #359
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim

    Once again Jim is correct!....

    Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

    The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
    The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Once again Jim is correct!....
    No he is wrong once again, three days later and Christ had still to go to his Father in Heaven.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Where was He then? Well according to my Sunday School teacher Christ was in Hades (Hell). Paradise had multiple meanings to the Jews, however in this context it clearly meant Abraham's Bosom. Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was a place, it was the good half of Hades. Since all of Hades represented Spiritual death or a separation from God, it was mostly translated as Hell in the scriptures.

    par·a·dise [par-uh-dahys, -dahyz]
    noun
    1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
    2. an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
    3.( often initial capital letter ) Eden .
    4. a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
    5. a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

    1 Pet. 3:18-20
    3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.



    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

    The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
    The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.
    And in that you would be wrong again...

    According to my Sunday School teaching...

    Abraham's Bosom
    The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these p***ages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

  11. #361
    alanmolstad
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    in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

    but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

    the same will happen to us too.
    when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
    then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


    so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-09-2014 at 07:05 PM.

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

    but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

    the same will happen to us too.
    when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
    then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


    so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be
    Nice attempt to try and save yourself, however you are wrong yet again, the scriptures are clear on this.

    Matt 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Perhaps it's time you find another Sunday School to attend where they understand the scriptures. Because so far you have been wrong on just about everything

  13. #363
    alanmolstad
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    yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

    but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

    at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

    so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

    but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

    at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

    so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....
    No... Wrong again! Did you not see the scripture I posted before? Christ was in Hades preaching to those in prison.

    1 Pet. 3:18-20
    3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.

    And others...

    The Apostles' Creed reads:

    "I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth;
    and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord;
    who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, dead and buried.
    He descended into hell.
    The third day he rose again from the dead.
    He ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father almighty.
    From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead....."
    Last edited by theway; 03-09-2014 at 08:44 PM.

  15. #365
    alanmolstad
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    Lets look at what Walter Martin says...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


    when we say ,"descended into hell"...we mean the grave.
    The phrase makes sure that everyone understands that jesus was "dead"

    not almost dead....not asleep....not drunk....

    But dead, stone cold dead....

    The people that go on and on, teaching based only on the creed that Jesus was in the hell of the ****ed simply are getting off-track with the bible and going after ideas that cant be supported with the text alone.

    The thing we know for sure is that on the cross Jesus told the thief where they would be going....."Paradise"
    and that where Jesus is (paradise), he will come and take us there too!

    This is very easy to understand once you trust the Jesus knew where he was going and just take his word on it.




    So they put his body into the grave, and there is was until Sunday morning.

    We do not mean that Jesus was burning with the ****ed...LOL

    for more information, see - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/...ert/nov15.html




    So the bible teaches that Jesus died a normal human death on the cross.
    they put his dead body in the ground.

    The bible teaches us that Jesus said he would be that very day with the thief in "paradise".
    As we know that that day his dead body was still in the tomb, this shows us that Jesus was talking about both his and the other man's spirits being in "paradise"

    So then on the 3rd day, Jesus was resurrected, his spirit was united with an everlasting body of flesh and bone.....and this is just like what will happen to us in the future too!


    When I die my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

    Then at the resurrection i will return to the earth with the lord, and rise up from the grave in an everlasting body of flesh and bone....




    thats the facts ...case-closed
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-09-2014 at 09:34 PM.

  16. #366
    alanmolstad
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    so we only have one example of what will one day happen to all Christians.
    The death and resurrection of Jesus is our only example and only guide on this issue.

    Thus, based on what we know about the resurrection of Christ, I have enough support to have faith that I too will in the same manner be raised from the grave.


    I will die a normal human death.
    At the moment of my death my spirit will go to be with the Lord in paradise.
    At the moment of death they will take my body and put it in the ground.

    then, at the return of Christ, I return with him from paradise and rise up in an everlasting body of flesh and bone.

    and just as Jesus went up into the air to meet the lord, so too will the church rise up to meet the Lord in the air.

  17. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Lets look at what Walter Martin says...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA
    LOL.... This explains where you got your unbiblical ideas from. Walter Martin was a joke when it came to biblical knowledge and understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    when we say ,"descended into hell"...we mean the grave.
    The phrase makes sure that everyone understands that jesus was "dead"

    not almost dead....not asleep....not drunk....

    But dead, stone cold dead....

    The people that go on and on, teaching based only on the creed that Jesus was in the hell of the ****ed simply are getting off-track with the bible and going after ideas that cant be supported with the text alone.

    The thing we know for sure is that on the cross Jesus told the thief where they would be going....."Paradise"
    and that where Jesus is (paradise), he will come and take us there too!

    This is very easy to understand once you trust the Jesus knew where he was going and just take his word on it.




    So they put his body into the grave, and there is was until Sunday morning.

    We do not mean that Jesus was burning with the ****ed...LOL

    for more information, see - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/...ert/nov15.html




    So the bible teaches that Jesus died a normal human death on the cross.
    they put his dead body in the ground.

    The bible teaches us that Jesus said he would be that very day with the thief in "paradise".
    As we know that that day his dead body was still in the tomb, this shows us that Jesus was talking about both his and the other man's spirits being in "paradise"

    So then on the 3rd day, Jesus was resurrected, his spirit was united with an everlasting body of flesh and bone.....and this is just like what will happen to us in the future too!


    When I die my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

    Then at the resurrection i will return to the earth with the lord, and rise up from the grave in an everlasting body of flesh and bone....




    thats the facts ...case-closed
    Sorry but as I pointed out before Paradise in that verse meant a section of Hades or Hell.
    THIS IS NOT A UNIQUELY MORMON BELIEF... If that makes you feel any better about it?

    Before you think you are going to school me on the Bible, do a little research first on;

    The Harrowing of Hell
    Abraham's Bosom
    Purgatory
    The meanings of Paradise.
    Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna

  18. #368
    alanmolstad
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    Hell.....in the case of the creed is talking about the grave, its used to make sure the person does not think that Jesus was just asleep.

    Abraham's Bosom....is best translated in the more modern understanding of "Abraham's hug.....his embrace .

    purgatory....is an invented idea that was dreamed up because the answer "The bible does not say" was not good enough for some people.

    Paradise............ is where Jesus is, and where we go to be with him.

    Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna ...........are terms used in different ways in different context and can be talking about different topics depending on the context.

  19. #369
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    and...Walter Martin was a great man....

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Hell.....in the case of the creed is talking about the grave, its used to make sure the person does not think that Jesus was just asleep.

    Abraham's Bosom....is best translated in the more modern understanding of "Abraham's hug.....his embrace .

    purgatory....is an invented idea that was dreamed up because the answer "The bible does not say" was not good enough for some people.

    Paradise............ is where Jesus is, and where we go to be with him.

    Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna ...........are terms used in different ways in different context and can be talking about different topics depending on the context.
    LOL.... As always, Evangelicals like to reinvent the Bible and doctrine to fit their heretical ideas. However even the Father of Evangelicalism disagree with you.

    John Calvin
    "Christ's descent into Hell was necessary for Christians' atonement, because Christ did in fact endure the penalty for the sins of the redeemed."

    You stated your case perfectly "modern understanding says..."
    You seem to like to dismiss how it was actually understood when it original written.

  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    and...Walter Martin was a great man....
    As participation on his website shows.

  22. #372
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    John Calvin
    "Christ's descent into Hell was necessary for Christians' atonement, because Christ did in fact endure the penalty for the sins of the redeemed."

    .
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/...ert/nov15.html

    "Centuries later, Thomas Aquinas resolved Augustine's problem by saying Christ descended to two places—hell and purgatory—and that his purpose in each was different. In hell, he put unbelievers to shame, while in purgatory, he gave sinners hope for glory and the righteous deliverance. But this explanation did not satisfy all. Martin Luther, though he believed Christ descended to hell, would offer no clear cut explanation for the event. John Calvin went so far as to describe the descent as symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross."

  23. #373
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    As participation on his website shows.
    This site is very much a good tribute to a great man of God.
    We do bring to mind the work of Walter when we come here....the work that Martin started goes forth in many ways and in many things as we see here too on this site that allows people to find answers for the hope that is within me..

  24. #374
    alanmolstad
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    and this is the hope that is within me:
    That I will die a human death as my lord also died.
    And like the lord my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

    and one day my spirit will rise up in an everlasting body of flesh and bone, and i will rise off the earth and meet the lord in the air.

  25. #375
    alanmolstad
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    So this means that what happened to the thief was not anything different at all than what will happen one day to myself and to all other Christians.

    We all die as the thief does.
    The lord sends his angels and they take our spirit to be with the Lord in paradise.
    The people still alive take our dead body and put it under the ground.

    Then one day, I will return with the lord and rise up in my new body.



    Thats how it goes, that is the Good News we Christians bring to the world.
    That is the hope that is within me.

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