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Thread: The Thief

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Tom doubted that it was the same body too.......LOL
    Tom???? Are you referring to Thomas?

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What about all those whose body was eaten by sharks and marine life--that no longer exist? Will they not be able to resurrect?
    does not matter in even the slightest way!!!!!

    Think about all the zillions and zillions of people that are dust.....
    The body of man goes into the ground, for it was of the earth and simply returns to where it came forth from in the beginning.
    My flesh will rot.....will become part of the world of nature...for it was dust in the beginning and it returns to dust ****ing in the wind in the end.

    But God will remember me.....and I will rise up out of the grave....and of they who were eaten by fish we will see them also rise up out of the sea too!

    For the sea will give up its dead too, so you don't have to worry that your flesh is burned, or is lost to animals, or is just dust ****ing away to nothing left.
    We don't have to worry because God remembers us......for it was God who created us out of dust in the first place!!!!!!!!

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

    That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.
    Yes, Jesus did not "ascend in the flesh until after the resurrection.



    So it goes like this...



    When I die my body will go into the grave.
    But my spirit goes to be with the Lord...


    Then at the "resurrection" I am reunited with my body that is now changed in it's nature.
    And I rise up off the earth to meet the Lord in the air!

  4. #404
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

    That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, Jesus did not "ascend in the flesh until after the resurrection.
    If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:


    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

    The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:


    1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

  5. #405
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    In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

    If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

    i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

    The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

    To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

    I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.

  6. #406
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    let me know if you have any more questions on the topic...

    I very much enjoy the chance to write on topics like this, as the Lord allows me to do so.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:

    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

    The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:

    1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

    If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

    i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

    The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

    To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

    I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.
    And how does all this validate your claim that Jesus was with the thief in heaven the day of His death--and yet--Jesus claims He had yet ascended to His God and Father after His resurrection?

    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

  8. #408
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    "ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

    I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

    This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending, for you cant have any ascending or descending unless you have a body.
    He who went "up" to heaven could not do so unless he came "down" from heaven, and that means you got to have a body!!!!!


    Its our flesh that gives us a "position" that can later go "up",,,or in the Bible's term to "ascend".



    But when i die I go to be with the Lord instantly.
    But its not in a body.......Im not "ascending"...for without a body I do not have up or down...no left of me,,,nothing to the right of me...



    Understand?

  9. #409
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    So when I die, my body goes into the ground, but my spirit goes to be with the Lord.


    Then at the resurrection I come with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body of flesh and bone.
    This new body gives me the ability to now "ascend" to be with the Lord physically forever and ever....

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

    I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

    This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending,
    So--you don't believe this is true?


    Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

    but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

    the same will happen to us too.
    when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
    then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


    so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be
    "but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death."

    Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement? That there is a God, the Lord you speak of in Heaven, then you admit that Christ has a spirit all his own, separate and distinct being from the Father. Two beings. Two spirits, one in Heaven, and one on earth. Then you admit that same spirit separate of the Father came back to earth to inhabit it's body once again. So that when Christ presented Himself to the Apostles saying a spirit hath not flesh and bones, we know that Christ, the individual spirit, a being all its own, inhabited that body while the Father, a being unto Himself was in heaven.
    Last edited by TrueBlue?; 06-03-2016 at 07:03 AM.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    "but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death."

    Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement? That there is a God, the Lord you speak of in Heaven, then you admit that Christ has a spirit all his own, separate and distinct being from the Father. Two beings. Two spirits, one in Heaven, and one on earth. Then you admit that same spirit separate of the Father came back to earth to inhabit it's body once again. So that when Christ presented Himself to the Apostles saying a spirit hath not flesh and bones, we know that Christ, the individual spirit, a being all its own, inhabited that body while the Father, a being unto Himself was in heaven.
    yes..

    whats the problem?

  13. #413
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    Jesus is fully human....he is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

    as a fully human, the resurrection of Jesus has to be the resurrection of a normal human in all ways, or else I cant trust that the Lord that raised Jesus can raise me.

    Jesus is our proof that we normal humans can be raised from the dead.

    If Jesus was not a normal human, then his Resurrection was a different type and not a normal human resurrection, and thus a moot point and proves nothing.


    and we know Jesus has a normal human life, for this is why Jesus tells the Father, "In to your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"....


    not "our spirit"


    No, he says that into the father's hands he commits "my spirit"

  14. #414
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    So to review.

    Jesus is both fully human and fully God Almighty.

    as a human with a normal human nature, Jesus is flesh and bone...he can be seen,,,felt...heard.

    As God Jesus is pure spirit, and thus invisible and completely beyond our ability to understand.
    This is why Jesus is the image of the invisible God...for the Word BECAME flesh!

    The Word became something that it was not beforehand...

    The Father did not become flesh
    The Holy Spirit did not become flesh.

    Only the Word became flesh and lived with us as a normal human.

    The Word became flesh, but never stopped being fully God Almighty,,,and as God almighty the Word was and is always spirit, and invisible.

    Thisis why the Word had to "become"flesh

  15. #415
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    I will now go over what I had written in more detail and add any new comments that might draw-out in a more clear maner what it is Im teaching.

    in the body.....this part of my post I believe was in responce to the suggestion that Christ had not entered into heaven at his death.
    Wht Im saying here is that -in agreement with the Scripture that teaches that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord, that Christ at the very moment of his death was with the lord....yet his body was still on the cross and then in the tomb.

    Then after the resurrection Christ 'arove" and ebtered into the kingdom of heaven in a body of flesh and bone.
    This is what the Bible teaches will also happen to us too.

    When we die our body goes into the dirt and our spirit goes to be at home with the Lord.
    Then in the resurrection we will return with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a body of flesh and bone.

    ......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

    but the spirit of Christ was with the lord at his death.
    .....here I am talking about the fact that Christ died on the cross after he sent his spirit to the father.
    His dead body still hung on the cross, but his spirit was with the Lord at his death.


    the same will happen to us too.
    ...As I have said before, Christ is the example of what our own resurrection will be like.
    His is our only guide.


    when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
    then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.
    ...this is the teaching of the Bible and always has been.


    so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be...No new teaching that anyone might dream up or claim to have received can disagree with what we have already been given in our example with the resurrection of Christ.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    Do you realize what you are admitting to in that statement?.....
    Im only admitting what I have said and what i have gone over in detail talking about and discussing.

    If there is any doubt over what i have said, or if you would like to have me talk about anything I have posted,just ask....

    I will be happy to look at what you have a concern about.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I will now go over what I had written in more detail and add any new comments that might draw-out in a more clear maner what it is Im teaching.

    in the body.....this part of my post I believe was in responce to the suggestion that Christ had not entered into heaven at his death.
    Wht Im saying here is that -in agreement with the Scripture that teaches that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord, that Christ at the very moment of his death was with the lord....yet his body was still on the cross and then in the tomb.

    Then after the resurrection Christ 'arove" and ebtered into the kingdom of heaven in a body of flesh and bone.
    This is what the Bible teaches will also happen to us too.

    When we die our body goes into the dirt and our spirit goes to be at home with the Lord.
    Then in the resurrection we will return with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a body of flesh and bone.

    ......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

    but the spirit of Christ was with the lord at his death.
    .....here I am talking about the fact that Christ died on the cross after he sent his spirit to the father.
    His dead body still hung on the cross, but his spirit was with the Lord at his death.


    the same will happen to us too.
    ...As I have said before, Christ is the example of what our own resurrection will be like.
    His is our only guide.


    when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
    then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.
    ...this is the teaching of the Bible and always has been.


    so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be...No new teaching that anyone might dream up or claim to have received can disagree with what we have already been given in our example with the resurrection of Christ.
    I was mainly referring to the idea that the Father is a separate and distinct being from our Lord Jesus Christ. Making two beings one will, and only because Christ freely subjects a separate will all His own to the Father's will. That Christ has always been a separate and distinct being with His own will apart from the Father.

  18. #418
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    I talk about the concept of the Holy Trinity like this...that Jesus is the 2nd "person" of the Trinity,
    Jesus is not the Father, nor is he the Spirit,,,yet with the father and the Spirit Jesus is worshiped as the one true God....

  19. #419
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    and so.....

    This is why I posted the words - "but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death"

    For this is in agreement with the scripture that says at Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."....

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So to review.

    Jesus is both fully human and fully God Almighty.

    as a human with a normal human nature, Jesus is flesh and bone...he can be seen,,,felt...heard.

    As God Jesus is pure spirit, and thus invisible and completely beyond our ability to understand.
    This is why Jesus is the image of the invisible God...for the Word BECAME flesh!

    The Word became something that it was not beforehand...

    The Father did not become flesh
    The Holy Spirit did not become flesh.

    Only the Word became flesh and lived with us as a normal human.

    The Word became flesh, but never stopped being fully God Almighty,,,and as God almighty the Word was and is always spirit, and invisible.

    Thisis why the Word had to "become"flesh
    So--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bone-- or not?

  21. #421
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    I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

    Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
    He says he had kept the law all his life.
    Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
    So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

    and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned.

    His whole life of struggling to keep the law, ended in still learning that all that life still left him short of his goal.
    He had to go walking away from talking to Jesus thinking to himself, "What was the point of the law then?"


    On the other hand....

    Lets consider the life of the thief on the cross.
    He spent his life doing evil.
    The results of his life spent doing evil got him condemned and nailed to a cross where he would soon die in pain.

    and yet, just before his death would happen, he turns to the Lord and believes.
    This one simple act of faith changed his eternal future!

    This is why the Bible teaches that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
    For the thief on the cross had no works....he had nothing to point to that he could use to justify his enterence into heaven.
    All he had was this one single little moment , where he believed in Jesus.



    So on the one hand we had a guy who trusted in his works to count with the Lord, and on the other hand we had a guy who only had his faith.


    Only the man with faith was saved.

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

    Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
    He says he had kept the law all his life.
    Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
    So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

    and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned..
    He walked away dejected becacuse Jesus required more yet of him:

    Matthew 19:16-21---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

  23. #423
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    The only thing asked is the same for us all...
    To follow Christ. .
    To believe. ....

    Saved by grace though FAITH.

    What are the works god asks?....to believe in Jesus.


    It's that simple?......yes


    And this agrees with the Bible where it says - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness



    Romans 3:22
    And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction

    Romans 4:6
    just as David proclaims the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


    Romans 4:24,25 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him …

    Romans 3:22
    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to …

    Romans 5:1,2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 10-02-2017 at 03:54 AM.

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