Page 2 of 17 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 423

Thread: The Thief

  1. #26
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, I know you do not want to acknowledge that the thief actually did something...you have made that clear.
    The only thing required of the thief was faith.

  2. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Would the thief have done those things without faith?
    Exactly my point Mag---faith without works is dead--even for the thief.

    It was grace that saved through his faith.
    But the infant who dies is saved without faith or works. So, truly is always grace that saves us alone and not what WE do (whether it be faith our grace). But, what is faith really? Isn't is just a belief in Christ and what He says. Doesn't faith just mean that we follow Christ and do what He asks?


    Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow.
    Yes, because we believe Christ and as such, follow Him out of gra***ude. I agree.

    It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats,
    Yes, but if faith opens the door to grace, then isn't works an integral part of faith as faith without works is dead?

    If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter.
    Yes, if is neither faith nor works (as they are intertwined) that saves us, but merely grace. Therefore, it is not our works that save us---nor our faith (both being imperfect together), but grace alone. Wouldn't you agree? (This is why Christ states that they, those who don't have faith, do the WORKS of iniquity---seeing as they did not have faith.)


    By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done.
    What do you think Christ means when He tells us the great commandment is to love God with ALL of our heart, ALL of our mind and ALL of our strength? Wouldn't those who love God do ALL they can do as He asks? Christ understands that even the faithful have imperfect faith---which is why when Peter walked on water and then fell, he said "ye of little faith"---our works match our faith. Our works are imperfect precisely because our faith is imperfect. Therefore, it is ALWAYS grace that saves. That said--as we strive to follow God with all of our heart, mind, and strength--HE perfects us. This is called santification.


    you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored,
    agree!

    I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save.
    Yes, Paul makes it clear we are saved by grace.

    For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things.
    Isn't that what God's grace gives--a change of heart?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The only thing required of the thief was faith.
    You are avoiding the question Billyray. Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief had not 1) defended Christ, 2) confessed he was a sinner, and 3) asked Christ to remember him?

    This is a simple yes or no Billyray, and yet you avoid answering it.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  4. #29
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You are avoiding the question Billyray. Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief had not 1) defended Christ, 2) confessed he was a sinner, and 3) asked Christ to remember him?

    This is a simple yes or no Billyray, and yet you avoid answering it.
    Works are not required for salvation.

  5. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Works are not required for salvation.
    Still avoiding the question Billyray, amazing truly!

    But can someone, who is capable, have faith without works? Did the thief have works BECAUSE he had faith? And would Christ have saved the thief had the thief, even though he said in his heart he believed, yet did nothing? Does Christ save the person who says in their heart they believe but then doesn't act on it?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  6. #31
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Still avoiding the question Billyray, amazing truly!
    Truly amazing that you don't understand my response. The only thing required is faith. BTW I don't consider the thief's actions as works.

  7. #32
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    And would Christ have saved the thief had the thief, even though he said in his heart he believed, yet did nothing?
    You are trying to make works a requirement for salvation. Works do not contribute for salvation.

  8. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Truly amazing that you don't understand my response. The only thing required is faith. BTW I don't consider the thief's actions as works.
    Billyray---the only thing required is grace (as a young infant can die and go to heaven without faith our works). I think we agree on that.

    As such, the discussion is not what it takes to be saved---but more whether or not one can have faith without works. That said, would Christ have saved the thief if the thief hung on the cross and did nothing instead of what he did which was 1) defend Christ, 2) confess he was a sinner, and 3) ask Christ to remember him. Would Christ have given his grace to the thief if the thief hung there silent. A simple yes or no is all it takes Billyray.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  9. #34
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray---the only thing required is grace (as a young infant can die and go to heaven without faith our works). I think we agree on that.
    If the only requirement is grace then everyone should be exalted.

  10. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,008

    Default

    Once again ...where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

    This is a very simple question, DB. Is there some reason why you refuse to answer it?

    -BH

    .
    __________________

    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  11. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If the only requirement is grace then everyone should be exalted.
    No, without grace, none could be exalted---so, grace is an absolute requirement for salvation. Don't you agree.

    That said, who does Christ give his grace to? Does He give it to those with dead faith or living faith? Would He give His grace to the thief if the thief hung on the cross and said nothing? You still have not answered this question.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #37
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    No, without grace, none could be exalted---so, grace is an absolute requirement for salvation. Don't you agree.
    Faith is required, with the exception of infants and the mentally challenged.

  13. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Faith is required, with the exception of infants and the mentally challenged.
    Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.

    Do you agree, that without grace--no one would be saved. It would not matter if you have faith, it would not matter if you have works--without grace, salvation is impossible. Would you agree?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #39
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.
    We are saved by the grace of God when we place our faith in Christ. That is what is required.

  15. #40
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It would not matter if you have faith, it would not matter if you have works--without grace, salvation is impossible.
    Sure it would matter because if a person has faith in Christ he will be saved and this is by the grace of God.

  16. #41
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Billyray--once you make the exception, it is like saying--it is required, except when it is not.
    It doesn't change the requirement only that God has mercy on those that are incapable to make that decision on their own. For example it is against the law to take a candy bar from the store. An able bodied person will be charged for theft but an infant will be let off the hook because they were incapable to to know better. This doesn't mean the law is not in effect.

  17. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    It doesn't change the requirement only that God has mercy on those that are incapable to make that decision on their own. For example it is against the law to take a candy bar from the store. An able bodied person will be charged for theft but an infant will be let off the hook because they were incapable to to know better. This doesn't mean the law is not in effect.
    Yes, but doesn't it show that ultimately, the law is in the hand's of the Master and that ultimately, it is always His grace as to whether the penalty of the law is enforced or not?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  18. #43
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, but doesn't it show that ultimately, the law is in the hand's of the Master and that ultimately, it is always His grace as to whether the penalty of the law is enforced or not?
    And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.

  19. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.
    And do you believe what is required of Him is to believe Him and then do nothing regarding what He tells you to do? Is that faith to you?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #45
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    And do you believe what is required of Him is to believe Him and then do nothing regarding what He tells you to do? Is that faith to you?
    I believe that faith is required by us FOR salvation. Works do not contribute FOR salvation.

  21. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And he has told us what is required. Those who place their faith in him will be saved. Work do not contribute FOR salvation.
    Then neither does faith:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

  22. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,008

    Default

    Still not seeing even a response, let alone an answer. DB ....where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

    -BH

    .
    __________________

    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  23. #48
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then neither does faith:
    Faith is required.

  24. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Faith is required.
    If faith is required--then how does one exclude obedience to Jesus Christ from that term:

    James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

  25. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    4,008

    Default

    Oh DB....?

    Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?

    -BH

    .
    __________________

    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •