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Thread: The Thief

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Oh DB....?

    Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?
    None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.

    But taking the example of the thief to prove that there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not their idea of the things that are exemplary of the teachings of Christ and His disciples, and found within the Biblical NT.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.
    But you don't believe that the thief went to Paradise like the Bible clearly states.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

    db: CFR please! There are NO second chances. You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.

  4. #54
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Or that the writer had a different conception of paradise. I really do not know.

    But this I do know--that I do not hang the evidence my theology on a single hanging chad of translation of a single verse. But I do believe that there are many who are not baptized here on this earth--or that ever heard the name of Jesus Christ while in mortality--that will find eternal life through the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ--which has a plan for all people. The LDS believe that all will be given an opportunity to inherit eternal life, even though they might not had that opportunity here. That is what Temple work here for the LDS is all about--sealing all of mankind together, as families, in the eternities, whomever will have faith in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by neverending View Post
    db: CFR please! There are NO second chances.
    And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?


    You church takes on a lot of ***umptions and claiming that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH
    Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.

    If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so?


    and everyone in heaven will be a Mormon. MAN.....that is such a load of manure! How arrogant! Do you not see the pridefullness that your church teaches? Pride cometh before a fall db.
    LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?
    Does God need ordinances to save?

  6. #56
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    [dberrie2000;105770]And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?
    This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:
    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

    God judge what each man is judged by.. What the Bible says is there is no forgiveness outside Jesus. That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.. Each man is given his lifetime to come to Christ and that is all, after that the judgement..

    Just how many churches do you believe God has? If we look at the scriptures--we only find one true church--led by the living apostles of Jesus Christ, although there might have been others that claimed so.
    There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in.. See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus. yes the Church's Apostles are living just as the Patriarchs are living:
    Mark 12:26-27
    have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
    He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


    I agree with the words Jesus spoke here "ye therefore do greatly err" for like the Patriarchs the Apostles are His Apostles and He is the God of the living not the dead..

    If one were to reject that true church of the NT--and start their own--could they have been saved by doing so
    No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one.. And only God can add members to it.
    Acts 2:48
    ...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration.. If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..

    LDS do not believe in being a Mormon--that is your take, not the LDS. There will be only those who follow Christ, and obey Him found within the kingdom of God. There is only one church of God--and anyone who teaches there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for salvation, is not that church.
    I have shown you again and again from the Law that you are NOT obedient to the commandments of God. You aren't even obedient to the commandments of Jesus in the NT.. So any hope of your salvation by obedience is GONE.. Yes mormonism does teach it as the way to life but that is wrong.. Such laws are given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.. We see that we have failed to measure up to those commandments and seek shelter in His grace through faith.. Those that do so are the true Church.. The ONE TRUE CHURCH..

    You are right we must be obedient but I have fail to be obedient, and worse, you have also failed but cling onto the idea that adding clean water to sewage will make it clean. There is no forgiveness of sin in obedience. Forgiveness of sin required sacrifice of the blood of the innocent. Only in the Blood of the spotless Lamb of God is it found. Only in the imputed righteousness of that Lamb on us are we righteous..

    Just where does your partial obedience bring real righteousness? IT DOESN'T.. Mormonism has made up a new Jesus. A different Jesus from that God the Church has already received. The mormon Jesus is that Jesus, different in that He became a god, different in that he was a creation of another created god, different in that He cleanses his believers in water and not his blood and then demands what the flesh can not give, obedience.. This is why the Church sees mormonism as a cult and a false religion. Because the Jesus they hold to be the Jesus found in the Bible is that man made invention..That is not the Church found in the NT.. Mormonism is the three dollar bill of Christianity.. IHS jim

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Does God need ordinances to save?
    I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism that you believe is not obedience to Jesus's commands, and what it is about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace?

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    dberrie---And where do you find any mention of second chances? I'm referring to those who have not had an opportunity to hear the gospel. The work of salvation goes on in the hereafter, just as it does here. What about death do you believe shortens the arm of Christ to save, or somehow dilutes His Blood?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:
    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
    Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

    Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?


    James Banta---There is one Church.. there are many churches that the Church gathers in..
    No James--there was not many churches that the one church gathered in--there was one church--period. There might have been many congregations--but only one church.

    And that one church was headed by Jesus Christ--and founded upon the foundation of the living apostles. That was the only church in the NT.

    Do you believe that one could have rejected that church--and formed their own--and still have had salvation?

    See the Church is not a building or and organization but a living thing, the very Body of Her Lord, Jesus.
    Then that is evidence there are not "many churches" that make up the one church.

    No one can start a "True" Church".. You are right there is only one..
    Yes, James--there is one that can start a true church--and that is Christ alone. And those who are directed by Him to direct that church have heavenly manifestations, which none of the churches of today claim.

    And only God can add members to it.[
    Acts 2:48
    ...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Peter didn't do it. Paul didn't do it.. Only Jesus!! Smith didn't do it.. The TRUE Church has been here all alone and needed no restoration..
    And this is how they were added:

    Acts2:38-42--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

    Something the faith alone deny is even true.


    If it was lost then Jesus lied about being with us till the end of the age and that even the gates of hell couldn't stand against the Church.. Any church that teaches that the Church was ever lost is false..
    And anyone who denies that there isn't any obedience to Jesus Christ that is necessary for His grace unto life--isn't that church.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I can't tell you what God needs--but I can relate to you that the scriptures reveal that those who obey God's commands receive of His grace.
    OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?

  10. #60
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    D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..

    There are those that Jesus Himself called churches. For example the church of Ephesus from Rev 2:1, the church in Philadelphia from Rev 3:7.. In total Jesus specks of 7 churches in the context.. Each congregation is called a church.. In each of these local churches the Church, the called out ones, the body of Christ, meets one with the other. There is but one Church but the children of God ***emble together in different churches with different names all with different ways of operation under different human authority but all of them that are Christian look to their Lord and His word as the final authority in all matters.

    Yes I could start a church.. That is not a hard thing to do nor is it an issue of faith.. It is a matter of where God would have you serve Him. All Christian churches no matter what the name on the building are gathering places for the real Church, God's children, to gather. This could ne in a park, on a hillside, in a Cathedral, or a person's home.. Each would have a name like Good Shepard Lutheran, or Sandy Ridge Community, or first Presbyterian. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is the Church meeting there with them? Those who by the grace of God through faith in Jesus have become children of the Most High. Is there one true Church, Yes it is all the believers is the Jesus revealed in the Bible.. Not believers in some man made image of God they have given the Biblical name to such as what mormonism has done with the Name of Jesus. Teaching that he was creation of some other god that in turn was the creation of some other created god.. That is just as bad as if I had made a garden gnome placed it in my back yard and called it Jesus and ascribed to it all the works the Bible teaches the real Jesus did.. Unless the Jesus of your worship conforms to the God of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible it is a man made image and NOT the God of ALL creation..

    I have shown you that there were many churches scattered all over the known world in the time of John the Beloved. Yet we that there is one Church which is the body of Christ that all believers are a member.The Church is so called the Body of Jesus by the Apostle Paul in Col 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church". Again it is stated clearly and it not a hidden truth to anyone that will see..

    Jesus never started a Church in his ministry. He did refer to it but the power for the Church to become was given through God the Holy spirit as He filled the believers at Pentecost. That is the birthday of the Church. She has existed from that time all the way down through the centuries until today. Her Lord told Her that He would build Her and the gates of Hell would not stand against Her. He promised to be with Her always until the very end of the age.. If that is the true Church then anything but that would be a false church.. Mormonism denies that message and just on that denial is a false church..

    I will not speak against baptism as a commandment of Jesus that we should obey.. It's a small thing anyone can do. Still it is by the grace of God that salvation comes. It is Blood that brings atonement. Repentance is changing ones mind and taking on the name of Jesus. We are baptized into Him in His blood.. I still say that water baptism is conducted because of that remission because the blood of Jesus is NOT is that font, just water.. Water can aid in the cleansing of the body but has power to cleanse even one little sin.. Foe without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb 9:22). the three thousand saved that day in Jerusalem were saved as they "gladly received his word" and then they were baptized. Jesus added then all to the Church because of their faith.. As you can see believing that they were saved by their faith as they received the word is accepted by Me who believes that only by God's grace through faith and NOT by anything we can do are we saved fits nicely into the text of Acts 2:38-42..

    Anyone that believes that doing your best to be obedient is obedient is a fool.. If anyone looks to obedience as the way to life must be obedient 100% or make sure that you have repented 100% and never again to commit the same sin tiem and again.. You have never told me about your obedience in keeping the whole of the Law of God.. Because if salvation is by works then doing the works of the Law is what God would require.. How was your in-gathering this year? Did you have a wonderful time at the feast of the booths? Who prepared the Lamb for the P***over? Are you really obedient? IHS jim

  11. #61
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    Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    This life is their one and only chance.. The Bible is clear:

    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

    dberrie----Maybe you can explain where within that scripture it states that no one will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel following death--if they did not here it during mortality?

    Do you believe that all those who have died without that opportunity are sent to hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    D, I just showed you a verse that tells us that judgment awaits on our death. Not a second chance. There are other p***ages such as 2 Cor 6:2 "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." And again Jesus speaking of doing the works of God while it is light "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4).. Is there any chance to become a child of God after death, NO. It is done here or not at all..
    If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

    Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    OK lets say you are right that works are required FOR salvation. What works do I need to do to be saved?
    The Bible teaches such things as repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins(faith in Christ)--following Christ--enduring to the end--obedience to the doctrines and commandments of God, etc.

    Which the faith alone deny is necessary for salvation.

    Again, Billyray--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

    Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?
    God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God.. There are no excuses no second chances.. I have shown you the p***ages that say that NOW is the day of salvation here are the ones that tell us how those that never heard of Jesus can be saved:
    Romans 1:19-20
    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

    There is no excuse, no second chance.. To believe as the LDS church teaches is to deny the Bible.. I have shown you that I believe the Whole of the Bible.. Not with the slant I see in the mormon interpretation but as the Holy Spirit teaches it to me. It all fit together. All based on what God has done for us not what we try to do for Him or even for ourselves. Yes he prepares works for us to do, but my tasks my not be what He would ask you. These would not be our works but the works of He who would send us. Some are asked to offer their lives as a testimony, others to contribute out of the wealth God give to them. Some are called into the ministry of the word to teach. Everyone is gifted differently.. But our salvation has nothing to do with anything we can do.. As the Holy Spirit has taught me even our faith is His gift to those that He wills.. In God's knowledge and wisdom His choices have been made and all your complaints about their justice mean nothing..

    And may God bless all the pygmies in Africa (Larry the Cable Guy).. IHS jim

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    If that is true--how did all the Gentiles become children of God through faith in Christ, prior to the NT?

    Again--do you believe that all those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel will be sent to hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    God will give grace to who He wills.. Since salvation is by faith in Jesus (God), then like all Israel, those in the OT era that held faith in Him like Abraham were counted righteous before God..
    But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law, where there was no grace unto life.

    And you are addressing those who did have a chance to hear the gospel--my question is--what about all those who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel?

    What about those who were OT Gentile--which was before the Atonement and adoption into the seed of Abraham? Were they all sent to hell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--
    Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.
    Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."


    What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:


    Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."


    Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."


    Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?
    Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.

    When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ? Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?
    Sure it was added because up to that point there were very few laws that had been given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post


    Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?
    Why are you asking me this is the Mormon board so this is about YOUR beliefs.

    You tell me what it was added to then we can further examine it.

    You are not afraid to talk about Mormonism are you?

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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Abraham didn't live under the gospel of Christ DB. You keep making that claim but you can't support it from the Bible. Prove that he did or retract this false claim.

    dberrie---Galatians3:7-9--"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."


    What gospel was this? If it were not the gospel of Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    Why did it involve faith? What gospel involves faith being counted as righteousness:


    Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."


    Galatians3:18-19--"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."


    Could you explain for us what the Mosaic law was added to because of transgressions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.
    And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?


    When are you going to give me proof that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ?
    What other gospel would have resulted in this:

    Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

    Where is Baptism for the remission of sin? Where is laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Where are any of the ordinances? DB either prove your ridiculous claim or retract it.
    Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

    Could you explain under what gospel those are adopted as being the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    And how does that address the concern of Abraham being taught the gospel, or him living under that gospel?
    Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line.
    But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel. If you believe he did then show me from the OT any of the things that would be consistent with this gospel. Once you fail to do so I don't want to hear this bogus claim again. Comprende?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What other gospel would have resulted in this:

    Genesis15:6--"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
    All people who come to God either pre law, during the law, or after the law during the gospel of Christ are saved by placing their faith in God.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

    Could you explain under what gospel those are adopted as being the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise?
    Abraham was not under the LDS gospel. Abraham was given commands by God and he followed those commands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    All people who come to God either pre law, during the law, or after the law during the gospel of Christ are saved by placing their faith in God.
    Not the first person was saved under the Mosaic law. It had no saving power, and the Blood of Christ had yet to be shed for mankind, whereby any could be saved unto life eternal.

    All were still under the condemnation of the Fall, as to the Mosaic Law or prior to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Even Abraham had to await that day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Abraham knew ahead of time that a Savior would come through his line. But Abraham never lived under the LDS gospel.
    There is no such thing as an LDS gospel--it is either the gospel of Jesus Christ or it isn't. And Abraham lived under that gospel.

    Another diversion tactic.

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