The Thief

[alanmolstad]

once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....as it tells the story of people who became believers and yet had not gone near water....

thus the whole foundation of the concept that "baptism is only what saves" is built of a silly way to understand the text...LOL

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

once again, as I have pointed out, the Bible teaches that you do not "have" to be baptized to be saved....

John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even Martin Luther taught that:



"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John 3:5---King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:21---King James Version (KJV)


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Even Martin Luther taught that:

"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..." [emphasis added]

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

No where in the context of Jesus teaching Nicodemus in John 3 is baptism even mentioned. It is birth and then only two births. One a natural birth and one a spiritual birth. All people have been born naturally, only the children of God have been born spiritually. Baptism is clearly mentioned in the next context after Jesus and His disciples go to Aenon near to Salim. Surely the Holy Spirit through John was able to use the word baptism if it was called for.. In the text you references it was NOT call for..

Next you used 1 Peter 3:21 here is a better example of the real understanding of the text "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

It is the "good conscience toward God" that makes us clean before God, accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, not the cleansing of the body in the bath water of baptism..

As for every teaching that comes from a minister, they are as good as any other.. Martin Luther believed in infant baptism believing that saved the child, and that by sprinkling. Do you want to stand by that as a requirement? I had no idea that the LDS had adopted infant baptism as doctrine. This teaches the requirement for baptism like it teaches infant baptism. I reject both. You seem to accept both since you use it as evidence that baptism is required. I will believe what was given us directly from Jesus "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). He who believes in Him has everlasting Life..An infant is not capable of making a profession of faith. Jesus made that statement again "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:25-26).. Are only believers resurrected? No, so these word are speaking of eternal life not just mortality. When He said whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die He was specking of eternal life. Both believers and nonbelievers will be resurrected. Never dying requires faith therefore it is more than mere resurrection. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does listing the specific obedience change what the scriptures state:

Are you going to answer my question?

What works did those who received the Holy Spirit (in Acts 10) do prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?

[alanmolstad]

we are saved by grace though faith,

The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we are saved by grace though faith,

The thief on the cross received God's grace....and this was shown in his faith as he died.

The thief was saved.....and...he was saved the save way all are saved, no difference in his salvation and in mine.

What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

What? Where in the scriptures does it say he was saved?

are you sure you need to ask that question?

They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

John 14:3.......and where is that again?

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

are you sure you need to ask that question?

They never told you about "Today you will be with me _____..." back in Sunday school?

John 14:3.......and where is that again?

Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

john 14:3.........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

Where is paradise according to your Sunday School.

You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

(I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are not going to try and tell me you believe its on a planet in a different star system right?......

(I got to thinking about why you would ask this question and then some of the more nutty ideas i have heard on this forum came to mind)

I have no idea where paradise is in that verse, however we know for a fact it wasn't Heaven. Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.

This is what happens when you go to the wrong Sunday School....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

I have no idea where paradise is in that verse,.

Yes, I get that...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

. Actually, it was in the exact opposite place as Heaven.

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

Pretty close

Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

Pretty close

Where does the Bible say that Christ went for three days?

the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

The flesh went into the earth
The spirit went to the father in paradise.

This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



For more information I found you this video to look at -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


I think this video might help you in this study

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the spirit was dismissed on the cross..

The flesh went into the earth
The spirit went to the father in paradise.

This is also why later Jesus had to have the guys handle him, so that they understood that Jesus was not just a spirit.
The resurrection is a resurrection of the BODY!...........Amen!




This is the example that we will all have in the Christian church about our own resurrections!
One day my dead mortal body will rise up, and go to be with the lord forever in paradise!



For more information I found you this video to look at -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


I think this video might help you in this study

James seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

Once again....

Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

James seems to know the answer (maybe that's because despite who he has become, at least he went to the right Sunday School)

Once again....

Where was Christ for the there days after he died?

You can use what you learned in your Sunday School if wish.

Hint... to be with His Father in Heaven (paradise) was the wrong answer, even by your theology.

Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Jesus wasn't in Abraham's bosom all three days.. Remember the Bible teaches us that He took captivity captive. Since hell had not yet given up her dead the captives held in Abraham's bosom must be the those that Jesus took captive.. Where did he take them? The only place he could take them is to the Father, especially since the p***age tells us that "he ascended up on high" (Eph 4:8).. IHS jim

Once again Jim is correct!....

Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Once again Jim is correct!....

No he is wrong once again, three days later and Christ had still to go to his Father in Heaven.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Where was He then? Well according to my Sunday School teacher Christ was in Hades (Hell). Paradise had multiple meanings to the Jews, however in this context it clearly meant Abraham's Bosom. Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was a place, it was the good half of Hades. Since all of Hades represented Spiritual death or a separation from God, it was mostly translated as Hell in the scriptures.

par·a·dise [par-uh-dahys, -dahyz]
noun
1. heaven, as the final abode of the righteous.
2. an intermediate place for the departed souls of the righteous awaiting resurrection.
3.( often initial capital letter ) Eden .
4. a place of extreme beauty, delight, or happiness.
5. a state of supreme happiness; bliss.

1 Pet. 3:18-20
3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Back in Bible school I read a book that talked about the term "Abraham's bosom"...and one of the things it was teaching is that in a more modern understanding of this term we would say something like "Abraham's embrace"

The context is that the person who has died has returned to their loving father Abraham's arms and are safe.
The image is that of a father holding his child in his arms.....the child is safe, warm, protected, and never need worry again.

And in that you would be wrong again...

According to my Sunday School teaching...

Abraham's Bosom
The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these p***ages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

[alanmolstad]

in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

the same will happen to us too.
when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in the body......LOL.....Jesus went up to the father in his body after many days of talking to us....

but the spirit of christ was with the lord at his death.

the same will happen to us too.
when i die my body will go into the dirt but my spirit will go to be with the Lord.
then when the lord returns i will rise up from the grave....and then meet the lord in the air so that where jesus is i will also be.


so that is why we think of jesus as being our only example of what our fate will be

Nice attempt to try and save yourself, however you are wrong yet again, the scriptures are clear on this.

Matt 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Perhaps it's time you find another Sunday School to attend where they understand the scriptures. Because so far you have been wrong on just about everything

[alanmolstad]

yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes.....jesus body was in the tomb.......until the ressurection...just as my body will be in the ground until i rise up....

but at my death my spirit goes to the lord that gave it......

at my return to life i enter heaven with a body that will be just like the body of christ.

so at his death the spirit of jesus went to the father....

No... Wrong again! Did you not see the scripture I posted before? Christ was in Hades preaching to those in prison.

1 Pet. 3:18-20
3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. 19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.

And others...

The Apostles' Creed reads:

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead....."

[alanmolstad]

Lets look at what Walter Martin says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTFOAaNHacA


when we say ,"descended into hell"...we mean the grave.
The phrase makes sure that everyone understands that jesus was "dead"

not almost dead....not asleep....not drunk....

But dead, stone cold dead....

The people that go on and on, teaching based only on the creed that Jesus was in the hell of the ****ed simply are getting off-track with the bible and going after ideas that cant be supported with the text alone.

The thing we know for sure is that on the cross Jesus told the thief where they would be going....."Paradise"
and that where Jesus is (paradise), he will come and take us there too!

This is very easy to understand once you trust the Jesus knew where he was going and just take his word on it.




So they put his body into the grave, and there is was until Sunday morning.

We do not mean that Jesus was burning with the ****ed...LOL

for more information, see - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/...ert/nov15.html




So the bible teaches that Jesus died a normal human death on the cross.
they put his dead body in the ground.

The bible teaches us that Jesus said he would be that very day with the thief in "paradise".
As we know that that day his dead body was still in the tomb, this shows us that Jesus was talking about both his and the other man's spirits being in "paradise"

So then on the 3rd day, Jesus was resurrected, his spirit was united with an everlasting body of flesh and bone.....and this is just like what will happen to us in the future too!


When I die my body will go under the ground, and my spirit will go to paradise to be with the lord.

Then at the resurrection i will return to the earth with the lord, and rise up from the grave in an everlasting body of flesh and bone....




thats the facts ...case-closed

[alanmolstad]

so we only have one example of what will one day happen to all Christians.
The death and resurrection of Jesus is our only example and only guide on this issue.

Thus, based on what we know about the resurrection of Christ, I have enough support to have faith that I too will in the same manner be raised from the grave.


I will die a normal human death.
At the moment of my death my spirit will go to be with the Lord in paradise.
At the moment of death they will take my body and put it in the ground.

then, at the return of Christ, I return with him from paradise and rise up in an everlasting body of flesh and bone.

and just as Jesus went up into the air to meet the lord, so too will the church rise up to meet the Lord in the air.