Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 423

Thread: The Thief

  1. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,282

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I made the claim that you believe that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel. You took issue with that so I am asking you what is different.
    Yes, you made the claim. So do the work and support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.

    Marvin

    PS And you still insist on that strawman argument. I guess you don't mind be thought of as dishonest and deceptive.
    “Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”

    – G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00

  2. #102
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Yes, you made the claim. So do the work and support your claim. Don't expect me to do your work for you.
    What I said was true about the LDS type gospel. If you take issue with what I said then you need to tell me what you believe that I said was wrong. What differences are there between the LDS gospel and the gospel that you believe Abraham was under?

  3. #103
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I made the claim that you believe that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel.
    I was wondering--how does your claim here compare with Russianwolf's statement:

    Russianwolf---There is no LDS type of Gospel. There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    You made the claim--we are asking you to back your claim.

    Where do you find that the LDS believe that the Gospel that Abraham was taught was the same as the "LDS type of gospel"? Where do you even find my LDS reference to that phrase, except it be of your own making?

  4. #104
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I was wondering--how does your claim here compare with Russianwolf's statement:
    Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?

  5. #105
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?
    Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

    That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

    For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

    Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

    Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

    Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

    They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

    Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

  6. #106
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

    That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

    For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

    Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

    Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

    Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

    They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

    Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.
    The Gospel is found in Corinthians
    1 Cor 15:1-8
    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    No Laws no ordinances only what about Jesus. His death, burial, and resurrection. As witnessed By the Apostles and 500 of those that believed in Him.. There is no way to include as part of the Gospel something that is not included within the Bible.. Unless you are teaching that the Bible is not the word of God.. IHS jim

  7. #107
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    So why all of the belly aching when I said the LDS type gospel?

  8. #108
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Are you denying that LDS believe that the gospel that Abraham was under was a different gospel than you are under?
    [quote] dberrie---Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    [B]Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ.[B] The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

    That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

    For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

    Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

    Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

    Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

    They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

    Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So why all of the belly aching when I said the LDS type gospel?
    Because there is no "LDS type gospel". There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all.

  9. #109
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes. It was the same gospel--the gospel of Jesus Christ. The question being--if it was not the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

    There is only one gospel of Jesus Christ--and the scriptures state that it was the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham was taught--and that is what you are going to have to accept--if one desires the truths taught within the Biblical NT.

    That does not define what all was contained within that gospel--as the Lord reveals His gospel a little at a time.

    For instance--was the gospel after the first century--where it looked a lot different, in which taking the gospel to the Gentiles, and the doing away with circumcision, which was not part of the gospel practiced until later--was that still the gospel of Christ?

    Yes, it was. A fuller form of the gospel--but still the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Was it the gospel of Jesus Christ before the resurrection and the Atonement--yes, still the gospel. Was it the gospel before the Holy Ghost--yes, still the gospel.

    Adding components to the gospel, which has been done all along--does not disqualify it from being the gospel.

    Trying to define every truth revealed does not effect it being the gospel. Trying to qualify the gospel preached to Abraham by comparing it to the gospel truths contained within the LDS church does not disqualify it from the gospel of Jesus Christ, anymore than comparing it to what truths had been revealed after the first century of the NT church.

    They were completely different, in many respects. At the end of the first century AD--the gospel looked a lot different than at 33AD.

    Abraham was taught the gospel, no matter how you wish to compare it to all the truths contained in the LDS church, or dig up and define every ordinance or commandment Abraham was given.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    The Gospel is found in Corinthians
    1 Cor 15:1-8
    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
    The gospel is found throughout the Biblical NT--it is not confined to any one book or scripture.


    No Laws no ordinances only what about Jesus.

    The gospel of Jesus Christ was a Law itself:

    Galatians6:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

  10. #110
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    [dberrie2000;109401]The gospel is found throughout the Biblical NT--it is not confined to any one book or scripture.
    Seems like a confirmation to me.. "I declare unto you the gospel".. What more do you need?

    The gospel of Jesus Christ was a Law itself:

    Galatians6:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
    athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel.. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus was killed lay in the earth for 3 days and was resurrected.. That is GOOD NEW.. Law is a whole different animal... IHS jim

  11. #111
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post


    athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel..
    Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #112
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Because there is no "LDS type gospel". There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ--or it isn't the gospel at all.
    Sure there is it is the one you believe in.

  13. #113
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by James Banta View Post


    athe law of Jesus is NOT the Gospel..

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?
    As long as you don't bring up his previous posts:

    James Banta--Only the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with salvation.. You lack of Biblical knowledge is astounding.. Paul tell us that by the Law is the Knowledge of Sin (Romans 3:20). That the Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus (Gal 3:24).. The LAW of God is more than that He gave to Moses. Yes that is a huge part of the Law. But the LAW is every command given by God.

  14. #114
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Can we quote you on this one James---that the law of Jesus Christ is not the Gospel (of Jesus Christ)?
    What part of the Gospel as defined by Paul is the commandment to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? I don't see it there.. The good news is Jesus dies for our sin, and was raised the third day for our justification.. That is the Good News, the Gospel! Law is NOT GOOD NEWS, law is the knowledge of sin. Just what did you ever say you believed? It sure wasn't the Bible.. IHS jim

  15. #115
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    As long as you don't bring up his previous posts:
    And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel.. I don't understand you reading into my words as you would want them to appear rather than what I actually say.. That is just what you do to the scriptures! You did this to NE then she simply said the one commandment that came to her mind was the Golden rule. She never said it was the first commandment of God as you made it out to be. You just can't understand even simple statements when you feel that you are in the right. All reason goes out the door. That to your shame..IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 01-02-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  16. #116
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel..
    I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

    Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

  17. #117
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

    Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."
    And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?

    Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another, so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim

  18. #118
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?

    Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another, so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim
    Can't show that can you.. I didn't think you could.. So:
    It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
    Abraham Lincoln

  19. #119
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    And all I have said is 100% consistent with what I say here.. There is NO LAW OT or NT in the Gospel..
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I know, James. You are 100% wrong.

    Galatians5:2--"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    And where is the Law of Jesus part of the Gospel. Where are they even used in the same context?
    Are you attempting to show that bearing one another's burdens is not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?


    Do you ALWAYS bear your fellows burdens? ALWAYS? Do you ALWAYS love your fellow LDS all of them ALWAYS? I say No you don't always bear the burdens of one another,
    James--using my personal position as a litmus test to determine if the scriptures are true or not in not my idea of good exegesis.

    The scriptures state that bearing the burdens of others is the fulfillment of the law of Christ, period. Again--are you stating that that has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

    so by the authority of James 2:10 I say that you are guilty of NOT bearing the burdens of anyone.. You can't escape this by pointing a finger at me.. You are also making an unrighteous judgment is telling me that I am somehow worst than you in that commandment. I do admit that I am guilty of breaking the WHOLE of God's law in breaking this and many other commandments. I claim no righteousness of my own.. In myself there is nothing good save it be of God. You on the other hand are busy building the filthy rags of your own self righteousness.. IHS jim
    And just where do you find that obeying Christ is related to "filthy rags"?

    Are you saying that those of the scriptures had a right to the tree of life due to filthy rags:

    Revelation22:14--"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

    The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life. It is in direct contradiction to the scriptures. One is either going to have to have a way of collating the scriptures one to another--or ***ume the Bible is a very unreliable source of truth. Pitting the scriptures against one another, and playing the cat in the litter box, does nothing to establish your theology, and much toward proving the Bible unworthy of belief.

  20. #120
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life.
    The Bible teaches that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and that our works do not contribute for salvation. It is a mockery for you to teach that your works help save you, and that complete obedience to the commandments is what is required when you fail by your own standards.

  21. #121
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The faith alone do no more than make a mockery of the Biblical text by their approach of stating there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Bible teaches that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and that our works do not contribute for salvation.
    Sure it does:

    Philippians2:12--"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."


    It is a mockery for you to teach that your works help save you,
    But of course--the only way to honor God is to teach there are no acts of obedience to Him necessary fro His grace unto life--right?

    1 John2:3-4--"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

    and that complete obedience to the commandments is what is required when you fail by your own standards.
    The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.

  22. #122
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    1 John2:3-4--"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
    can you point out where it says that works contribute for salvation?

  23. #123
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.
    Is the standard for exaltation complete obedience to the commandments? If so why will you be exalted since you admit that you don't keep the commandments.

  24. #124
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,258

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The only way to fail is to lose the faith and throw away the truth. The LDS believe that the way to succeed is to rise one more time than we fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Is the standard for exaltation complete obedience to the commandments?
    Yes. We have been through this before.


    If so why will you be exalted since you admit that you don't keep the commandments.
    I suppose I am of the same thinking that Paul was--I press toward the mark of the high calling of God.

    That High calling, for me-- is eternal life--the mark is perfection.

    Billyray--I don't give up my religion because someone is trying to tell me I can't do it. I have faith in Christ--that somehow He will help me in the eternities to become perfected in Him. I know I can do it. I know it is possible, with God.

    Throwing away the truth for some prompting satan whispers in my ear is not my idea of faith in Christ.

  25. #125
    Billyray
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    I suppose I am of the same thinking that Paul was--I press toward the mark of the high calling of God.
    But you don't meet your own requirements.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •