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Thread: The Thief

  1. #151
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Billyray, what are the works that are required according to Jesus' parable?

    Marvin
    Same work James talked about.. No a mention of baptism, laying on of hand Temple endowment, Marriage, and enduring to the end in righteousness.. But I want you to look out at the world and see these kind of works done by the United Nation Children's Fund, and the Bill Gates Foundation.. Both doing wonderful work all in the name of humanity.. Can those works save them as they deny even the existence of God? NO, without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).. It all boils down to faith and mormonism denies that the God revealed in the Bible actually exists.. I totally understand why you put so much emphasis on works.. Your faith in the God of the Bible is nonexistent.. IHS jim

  2. #152
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Same work James talked about.. No a mention of baptism, laying on of hand Temple endowment, Marriage, and enduring to the end in righteousness.. But I want you to look out at the world and see these kind of works done by the United Nation Children's Fund, and the Bill Gates Foundation.. Both doing wonderful work all in the name of humanity.. Can those works save them as they deny even the existence of God? NO, without faith it's impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).. It all boils down to faith and mormonism denies that the God revealed in the Bible actually exists.. I totally understand why you put so much emphasis on works.. Your faith in the God of the Bible is nonexistent.. IHS jim
    My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.

    While those organization you mention are doing good, their judgement will be better than the Christians who give lip service to Christ but do not do the things he has commanded.

    Since James was writing to members of the church who already knew and undestood the Gospel and were already baptized, then there was no need for him to mention those principles.

    But Peter on the Day of Pentecost, was talking to people who were not members, told them when their heart were *****ed and they asked what should they do:
    Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    So when necessary, the leaders of the church do tell the unbelievers to be baptized. So much so that you will not find a dry Christian in all of the book of Acts. But it would be ridiculous for James to tell members of the church who are already baptized to be baptized. They have no need to be baptized again. And since he wasn't writing to them to tell them of the higher things of the Gospel but to correct some misconceptions and misunderstandings they had about faith and works, he doesn't mention the temple ordinances or temple sealings because that is not what he is writing them about.

    Every letter is not a complete encyclopedia of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The letters are for a specific set of points that the author wanted to address. You have to look at the scriptures as a whole and not cherry pick a verse here and/or a verse there an attempt to create a whole doctrine from it. To do so is a sure path to heresy.


    Marvin

  3. #153
    James Banta
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    [Russianwolfe;111017]My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.
    Is it now? You have faith in the Divine Being that has been GOD from everlasting and will continue as the ONLY GOD to everlasting? You are ready to take hold of the Biblical premise that Jesus (God) made all things visible and invisible. That would include even the subatomic partials that make up atoms that are the building blocks of even the base elements? Yes I know you give your created god the credit for everything that the Eternal God actually did.. That is why I have said that your God id no different than a Garden Gnome set up in my back yard.. I can ascribe all God's works on it too but would it be God? NO!! Neither is the god made up in the mind of Joseph Smith..

    While those organization you mention are doing good, their judgement will be better than the Christians who give lip service to Christ but do not do the things he has commanded.
    Again you deny the scripture:
    Heb 11:6
    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    The works of those Godless organization have no effect on the state of their eternal destiny. Either they come to Jesus for forgiveness or they will be cast into the lake of fire.. There is no middle ground.. Such an idea is again from the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith and has NO, ZERO, support in the Bible.. Not even in 1 Cor 15.

    Since James was writing to members of the church who already knew and undestood the Gospel and were already baptized, then there was no need for him to mention those principles.
    Those same people were taught how to treat their neighbors. The parable of the good Samaritan make the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves is very clear. That was again a commandment something we do and therefore is something a Christian should do, but has nothing to do with salvation, for salvation is NOT OF WORKS therefore no man can boast.

    But Peter on the Day of Pentecost, was talking to people who were not members, told them when their heart were *****ed and they asked what should they do:
    I have never spoken against baptism.. It is a Law that a Christian should obey. First it is to simple do do to put off. Then it was commanded by our Lord.. I don't know of any Christian church that denies the ordinance. It is conducted in some form bay all of the sects of the Church. The only question is are works such as baptism required for salvation or it salvation complete in the works of Jesus? The Church teaches that salvation is 100% the work of Jesus (God).. Therefor this p***age to stay true to the Bible that teaches that all who believe should have everlasting life, That all who believe in Him (Jesus) will never die.. must mean that Baptism is given to believers beacuse they have been cleaned by God because of their faith..

    So when necessary, the leaders of the church do tell the unbelievers to be baptized. So much so that you will not find a dry Christian in all of the book of Acts. But it would be ridiculous for James to tell members of the church who are already baptized to be baptized. They have no need to be baptized again. And since he wasn't writing to them to tell them of the higher things of the Gospel but to correct some misconceptions and misunderstandings they had about faith and works, he doesn't mention the temple ordinances or temple sealings because that is not what he is writing them about.
    The only problem with Paul telling the new believers to be baptized is that they were no longer nonbelievers. To tell a person to obey the commandments is the proper thing for a Church leader to do. Baptism is a commandment so being disobedient to that command would be sin.. Jesus died in order to forgive those who believe on Him of sin! The thing about your "Higher things" is that they are not even mentioned anywhere in all the scripture.. The only temple is all the Christian Church is the believer:
    1 Cor 3:16
    Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


    The Christian know that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hand:
    Acts 7:48
    However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands...


    Every letter is not a complete encyclopedia of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The letters are for a specific set of points that the author wanted to address. You have to look at the scriptures as a whole and not cherry pick a verse here and/or a verse there an attempt to create a whole doctrine from it. To do so is a sure path to heresy.
    The Gospel of Jesus is not a set of teachings, an authority to act in his name, a list of Laws, and specific ordinances to be preformed. The Gospel is the story of what God did to save mankind.. It is not what we can or even should do for God.. I have shown you how the whole Bible fits together and stays consistent is it's complete message.. I haven't just pulled out p***ages that speak of our sanctification and made them the Gospel in appose to all that p***age that speak to out salvation by grace though faith and out instant justification though the Blood of Jesus.. That is you doing your best to cherry Pick the word.. I have in turn shown you how they work in showing our need for grace, how they bring us to the cross and faith in Jesus for salvation.. You have not shown ant way that the P***age NOT OF WORKS means you must do good works, and salvation come by the acts of the WORKS of obedience.. IHS jim

  4. #154
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.
    Brother Marvin if I didn't know you better and I didn't know what you really believe I would almost think you were a born again Christian from your statement above.

  5. #155
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    My faith is totally in the God of the Bible and latter-day scriptures. The same God that spoke from Siniai and from Heaven at the baptism of Christ. The same God who descended from heaven after his resurrection to the people at the temple and taught them his Gospel. The same God who spoke with Moses and Elijah and the God in the cloud on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is the God who I have faith in. The same God who said that we are saved by grace through faith. My works are imperfect and my faith is imperfect, but if I walk in obedience to the God of the scriptures and revelation, then by his grace I will be saved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Brother Marvin if I didn't know you better and I didn't know what you really believe I would almost think you were a born again Christian from your statement above.
    That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

  6. #156
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.
    What does born again mean to you?

  7. #157
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.
    Mormonism teaches that they have to "Get wet" and have men lay hands on them.. There is no expedience that the Holy Spirit has come into them.. There are a few LDS that do display gifts of the Holy Spirit but they are few.. In fact it;s hard to say if that is what it is or are many just able speakers and teachers. It is for sure that not one of them acted like Peter after he was filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.. IHS jim

  8. #158
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is because the LDS are born again Christians.
    Born again Christians don't believe that they work for their salvation.

  9. #159
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is because the LDS are born again Christians. But in the truest sense--they believe in being born of water and the Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What does born again mean to you?
    The same thing that being born of water and of the Spirit meant throughout the NT, and demonstrated by Christ's example:

    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

  10. #160
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Born again Christians don't believe that they work for their salvation.
    Which is another way of stating that obedience to Jesus Christ has not the first thing to do with salvation in the faith that is alone for salvation theology.

    But the Bible teaches that those who obey Jesus Christ are those who receive of His grace unto life:

    Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

    Indeed--a false doctrine to the faith alone. But the gospel truth, according to the NT.

  11. #161
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Mormonism teaches that they have to "Get wet" and have men lay hands on them..
    The LDS teach the same thing the Bible commands:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Something the faith alone deny is even true.

  12. #162
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The same thing that being born of water and of the Spirit meant throughout the NT, and demonstrated by Christ's example:
    So born again means baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the LDS holy ghost?

  13. #163
    dberrie2000
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    The LDS teach the same thing the Bible commands:

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Something the faith alone deny is even true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So born again means baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the LDS holy ghost?
    Seeing that the faith alone do not even believe that repentance and water baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins........your answer has no connection to anything but a diversionary slant.

    Why do the faith alone not believe the Biblical scriptures?

  14. #164
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Why do the faith alone not believe the Biblical scriptures?
    I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?

  15. #165
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?
    Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

    Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."



    I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.

  16. #166
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
    This is not speaking about water baptism DB. Is this really the text you are relying on?

  17. #167
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I certainly believe the scriptures. Where does the Bible teach that born again equates to water baptism?

    dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

    Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


    I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    This is not speaking about water baptism DB. Is this really the text you are relying on?
    Since you did not give the first quote as to what scripture you are relying on, and found throughout the NT, as the scriptures I quoted are--the question must be asked--what text are you relying on?

  18. #168
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Since you did not give the first quote as to what scripture you are relying on, and found throughout the NT, as the scriptures I quoted are--the question must be asked--what text are you relying on?
    You are the one who claims that born again equates to water baptism so it is your responsibility to substantiate that claim.

  19. #169
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You are the one who claims that born again equates to water baptism so it is your responsibility to substantiate that claim.
    Here is my request:

    dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

    Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


    I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.
    Where is your scripture that relates to being born of water and the Spirit? I have posted mine.

  20. #170
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.
    John 3
    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Born of water in NOT water baptism and evident from these verses. Being born again is spiritual birth.

  21. #171
    dberrie2000
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    dberrie---Please post a scripture that states what being born again entails. Since it was a must for all to enter into the kingdom of God--then one must see it everywhere within the scriptures--as it is required for eternal life.

    Since it involves water and the Spirit--those scriptures must involve the same: water and the Spirit:

    St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


    I'll start with my scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit:

    Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

    Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Your turn--please print the scriptures that involve the water and the Spirit that you think John3:5 was referring to. It must involve water and the Spirit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 3
    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Born of water in NOT water baptism and evident from these verses. Being born again is spiritual birth.

    Being "born again" forever excludes even the possibility of the fleshly original birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.

    St John3:3--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

  22. #172
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Being "born again" forever excludes even the possibility of the fleshly original birth. That was Nicodemus' mistake.
    You are right "born again" doesn't mean physical birth it means a spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and then spiritually born (born again). And this has nothing to do with water baptism.
    Last edited by Billyray; 02-13-2012 at 09:04 AM.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You are right "born again" doesn't mean physical birth it means a spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and then spiritually born (born again). And this has nothing to do with water baptism.
    In Hebrew---water represents rebirth. Hence, the flood (a rebirth for the earth), baptism (a rebirth for the spirit), Moses taking the house of Israel through the Red Sea (a rebirth for Israel).

    And then of course, we have this verified by the apostles who tell believers to be baptized for remission of their sins.

    And then of course, the ultimate example of Christ's baptism. How do you argue away the River Jordon or Christ's baptism through immersion?

    So, I guess--Billyray, you once again seem to argue that you do not need to follow Christ in baptism and you can do it your own way---without water.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 02-13-2012 at 06:45 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #174
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, I guess--Billyray, you once again seem to argue that you do not need to follow Christ in baptism and you can do it your own way---without water.
    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    J are you trying to tell me that born of water in context of the surrounding verses is water baptism? Really?

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    John 3
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    J are you trying to tell me that born of water in context of the surrounding verses is water baptism? Really?
    Absolutely---you have to be blind not to see it. Especially in light that Christ was teaching a Jew who very well knew the meaning of water.

    I suppose you seem to think these comments of Christ's have nothing to do with His own baptism, nor the apostles teaching of baptism for the remission of sins. Being born again, then to you, is void of what Christ, the apostles or believers did regarding immersion in water representing their own spiritual rebirth.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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