The Thief

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--how does one claim Jesus had not yet ascended to His God and Father when He met Mary in the Garden--after His resurrection--and you claim that Christ ascended with the thief to heaven the day after His death--IE--before His resurrection?

That dog just ain't gonna hunt, IMO.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes, Jesus did not "ascend in the flesh until after the resurrection.

If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:


1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[alanmolstad]

In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If Christ's testimony can be trusted--Christ stated He had not yet ascended to His Father--period:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

That was following His resurrection. How could Jesus have been in heaven with the thief the day after His death--and claim He had not yet been to His Father after His resurrection???

The only record we have that specifically relates where Christ was after His death, is this one:

1 Peter 3:18-19---King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In Bible school I got to actuary stand up and do a little talk on the words that Jesus said to mary after the resurrection.

If I remember what I taught on, I had done some research into the words used, and then on my own tried to put them into a more modern context for the cl***.

i think I ended up saying that when we remember that mary was so upset at the death and now missing body of Christ, that when she saw that Jesus was back to life she pounced on him!,,,,

The words Jesus said was that he wanted Mary to stop "clinging to him"...the context is that Mary was hugging him tightly as to never, ever let him go.

To this Jesus tells her to relax as he has not left yet, but that he had stuff for her to go and do right now.

I think Jesus was just trying to get Mary to let go of him long enough for him to tell her he had a mission for her now to run and go do.

And how does all this validate your claim that Jesus was with the thief in heaven the day of His death--and yet--Jesus claims He had yet ascended to His God and Father after His resurrection?

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[alanmolstad]

"ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending, for you cant have any ascending or descending unless you have a body.
He who went "up" to heaven could not do so unless he came "down" from heaven, and that means you got to have a body!!!!!


Its our flesh that gives us a "position" that can later go "up",,,or in the Bible's term to "ascend".



But when i die I go to be with the Lord instantly.
But its not in a body.......Im not "ascending"...for without a body I do not have up or down...no left of me,,,nothing to the right of me...



Understand?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"ascend" means to go "up"........well it more or less means that..LOL

I will "ascend" to heaven only when Im in a body...for a body is a "physical" thing,,,its real....with a body I can experience up and down, over and under.

This is why Jesus needed a body in order to "ascend".....no body no ascending,

So--you don't believe this is true?


Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[alanmolstad]

So when I die, my body goes into the ground, but my spirit goes to be with the Lord.


Then at the resurrection I come with the Lord and rise up out of the grave in a new everlasting body of flesh and bone.
This new body gives me the ability to now "ascend" to be with the Lord physically forever and ever....

[alanmolstad]

let me know if you have any more questions on the topic...

I very much enjoy the chance to write on topics like this, as the Lord allows me to do so.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are saying that the thief ended up in New Jersey ?

As Christians we know that no one ascended to heaven except that Jesus came down from heaven.. Jesus did go to the place he had called Abraham's bosom where he proclaimed across the great gulf that those being held in hell were there of their own choices. The He (Jesus) took captivity those who were being held captive (Those waiting for Him held there in Paradise prison ) with Him to the presence of the Father..

While hell (the grave) holds those outside Christ it isn't their final estate.. Hell it's self will also be cast into the Lake of Fire.. It is that place prepared for Satan and his angels where all the faithless will be ***igned eternally.. Did not Jesus clear Abrahan's bosom? Please tell me if I am out of step with the Bible? Would Paul have some special dispensation, of is Jesus also ****ed to this place? Paul saith that to Live is Christ to die is gain. That it is better for him to die and be with Jesus, but better for the Church if he stayed in the flesh.. So is Jesus bound in Abraham's bosom or is he with the Father in heaven? If He is with the Father is not Paul with the Father? If Paul is with the Father are not all those looking to God in faith with the Father? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Luke 23:42 - Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

So here we see the words "your Kingdom" and in the next verse we will learn where this "kingdom" is?



Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

So in this verse you learn that the "kingdom" is located "with" Jesus in "paradise"




Ok cl***, lets sum that all up - The thief was going to be in the kingdom..... with .....Jesus .....in paradise.

Thus we know where the thief is, and where Jesus was going, and the correct terms to use what dealing with this topic.



Now lets find out more -
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



"I go"...= we already learned that Jesus went with the thief to his kingdom also referred to as paradise.
"a place" =The Kingdom, paradise
"take you" =so we get to go to this very same place that both Jesus and the thief went to
'with me" = this confirms that we will enter into the very same paradise that the thief entered with jesus on the day they both died.
"be where I am" = This is the hope of all Christians, that when Jesus will return and take us to be with him forever in paradise, for that is the only place i wish to spend eternity....Where my Lord is that is where i wish to be forever.

[alanmolstad]

I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
He says he had kept the law all his life.
Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned.

His whole life of struggling to keep the law, ended in still learning that all that life still left him short of his goal.
He had to go walking away from talking to Jesus thinking to himself, "What was the point of the law then?"


On the other hand....

Lets consider the life of the thief on the cross.
He spent his life doing evil.
The results of his life spent doing evil got him condemned and nailed to a cross where he would soon die in pain.

and yet, just before his death would happen, he turns to the Lord and believes.
This one simple act of faith changed his eternal future!

This is why the Bible teaches that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
For the thief on the cross had no works....he had nothing to point to that he could use to justify his enterence into heaven.
All he had was this one single little moment , where he believed in Jesus.



So on the one hand we had a guy who trusted in his works to count with the Lord, and on the other hand we had a guy who only had his faith.


Only the man with faith was saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think in the life and salvation story of the thief on the cross, and in the life of the man who asked Jesus a question about keeping the commandmdnts we have a great way to study the results of the false teaching of "Works salvation"

Consider the guy who was talking to Jesus...
He says he had kept the law all his life.
Jesus does not disagree with this claim.
So the guy is the textbook example of working for your salvation.

and yet in the end of the story the guy walks away dejected.....lacking...and to be found lacking by God is to be lost...to be condemned..

He walked away dejected becacuse Jesus required more yet of him:

Matthew 19:16-21---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[alanmolstad]

The only thing asked is the same for us all...
To follow Christ. .
To believe. ....

Saved by grace though FAITH.

What are the works god asks?....to believe in Jesus.


It's that simple?......yes


And this agrees with the Bible where it says - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness



Romans 3:22
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction

Romans 4:6
just as David proclaims the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


Romans 4:24,25 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him …

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to …

Romans 5:1,2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

[MacG]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Would Christ have saved the thief if the thief did nothing?

Would the thief have done those things without faith? It was grace that saved through his faith. What made the lame man at the pool of Siloam well? His decades of work attempting to get into the water? If fact, Jesus wanted to help him but his ingrained habit of working to get into the water nearly prevented his healing had Jesus not persued him beyond his initial focus on his failed works.

Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow. Of faith that is on the level of acknowledgement but disregarding and not following, such as the pre-free range, gr*** eating Nebuchadnezzar or for show out of peer pressure (proof) such as Annias, cannot produce righteous works. Righteous works must be done in the image of God's grace, of unmerited favor, lacking any self interest - like the Holy Spirit directs attention to God the Father. It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats, getting us to the Bema seat, it is any surviving righteous works (including personal sacrifices even up to husband, wife, and children mentioned in the Gospels) from that judgement for which we get reward or recompense, where every tear is dried and we will be shown the room Christ has prepared for us in His Father's mansion.

If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter.

By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done.

Grat***ude wants to give, grat***ude can come from being released from the burden of debt those that aren't grateful get their debt reinstated. works programs such as after all we can do are not selfless and lead to boasting or never being good enough AND that's the point of grace - you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored, born again as it were to do righteous works. What dead man can do righteous work in the eyes of God?

I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things.

[dberrie2000]

MacG---I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally).

While I find this kind of response typical of the faith alone--my question would be--why could a person not obey Jesus Christ out of gra***ude? Why does it have to be guilt? Why did these obey God:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Is your message here that all who receive of God's grace through their obedience to Him, does so through shame?

In either case Paul tells us works do not save. For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save.

While the LDS would agree that works, faith, belief, trust, etc. does not save one--the scriptures do show that obedience to Jesus Christ(faith in Christ) is the basis that God gives His grace unto life, Paul included:


Romans2:5-11--"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God."

James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed.

You're right--and the difference between dead faith and living faith is the result.

That's a difference a little more intrinsic than the faith alone are willing to admit.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by MacG

Would the thief have done those things without faith?

Exactly my point Mag---faith without works is dead--even for the thief.

It was grace that saved through his faith.

But the infant who dies is saved without faith or works. So, truly is always grace that saves us alone and not what WE do (whether it be faith our grace). But, what is faith really? Isn't is just a belief in Christ and what He says. Doesn't faith just mean that we follow Christ and do what He asks?

Of genuine faith, righteous works of obedience out of gra***ude follow.

Yes, because we believe Christ and as such, follow Him out of gra***ude. I agree.

It is faith that grants us the key to the door of heaven after the separation of the sheep and goats,

Yes, but if faith opens the door to grace, then isn't works an integral part of faith as faith without works is dead?

If it was works that saved in the name of serving God, keeping the statutes to a tee the Saducees and Pharisees would still have the keys to the Kingdom, as it turned out the keys were given to Peter.

Yes, if is neither faith nor works (as they are intertwined) that saves us, but merely grace. Therefore, it is not our works that save us---nor our faith (both being imperfect together), but grace alone. Wouldn't you agree? (This is why Christ states that they, those who don't have faith, do the WORKS of iniquity---seeing as they did not have faith.)

By now you have read: it is by grace through faith (and that not of yourselves) that you have been saved and not of works otherwise we could boast. Clearly this was written to living people who have not yet reached the Bema seat. They have been saved with no waiting around to see if they did all they could do. For if they had sinned once after faith, they did not do all they could have done.

What do you think Christ means when He tells us the great commandment is to love God with ALL of our heart, ALL of our mind and ALL of our strength? Wouldn't those who love God do ALL they can do as He asks? Christ understands that even the faithful have imperfect faith---which is why when Peter walked on water and then fell, he said "ye of little faith"---our works match our faith. Our works are imperfect precisely because our faith is imperfect. Therefore, it is ALWAYS grace that saves. That said--as we strive to follow God with all of our heart, mind, and strength--HE perfects us. This is called santification.

you can never do enough, be good enough to approach the throne, it is by grace we have been restored,

agree!

I suppose the evaluative question is are the works borne of faith (thief on the cross, whom I am sure was grateful) or of guilt (fig leaves, works to cover self, CYA, in Adam's case, literally). In either case Paul tells us works do not save.

Yes, Paul makes it clear we are saved by grace.

For the unsaved they help to cover the sense of shame but do nothing to save. James is telling us that they are an evaluative tool which points to someone may be of faith (Judas had works) versus one who says they have faith but out of whom works of righteousness do not proceed. There is no gra***ude, no works, no faith, still dead in their sins. Sometimes it is difficult to tell our motives. The heart is decitfully wicked above all things.

Isn't that what God's grace gives--a change of heart?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I beg to disagree. The point of some on this forum--and to the arguments of the faith alone--the thief was saved by faith independent of any obedience to Christ.

These statements state firmly that is a false doctrine--there isn't anything such as faith without works--the same statement that the Bible confirms as true.

James--the thief is the bastion of the faith alone--their flag bearer. When he goes down--their standard falls also.

But as I have stated all along--the faith alone share precious few salvational doctrines with the Bible--the faith alone hanging their theologies on something that is questionable at best--denying the plain and precious parts of the Bible:

James2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."




How does that ****ress up with what the scriptures state where Christ actually was:


1 Peter3:18-19--"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

The thief on the cross hasn't been effected by the statements of mere men.. That is all you have done here is quote men and try to make the Church responsible for their teachings.. We are NOT.. We take our theology from the Bible holding it and it alone to be the standard for out faith.. You can quote men forever it makes no difference. Find in the Bible that the thief would not always be with Jesus.

According to the teaching of Jesus SHEOL was divided into two locations One for the wicked and the other "Abraham's Bosom" for those who were righteous in God.. That is where Jesus went and proclaimed across the gulf that justice is satisfied in Him and that they who would not believe were receiving their just reward.. That was the preaching, not the gospel according to Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D.226-232]

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).


This is reflective of the LDS position on faith and works and the thief.


How does the position of the Early Church Fathers compare to those who maintain that the thief was granted eternal life at the cross, and had not obedience to Christ?

?????

Where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

No answer, DB...???

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Once again ...where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

This is a very simple question, DB. Is there some reason why you refuse to answer it?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Still not seeing even a response, let alone an answer. DB ....where do any of your citations above in any way mention or even hint at the fate or the salvation of the thief?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Oh DB....?

Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?

-BH

.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Oh DB....?

Again, where do any of your citations even mention the thief or his eternal fate? How do they say or imply whatever it is that you want to discuss about THE THIEF?

None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.

But taking the example of the thief to prove that there is no obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life is not their idea of the things that are exemplary of the teachings of Christ and His disciples, and found within the Biblical NT.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

None of my citations were meant to prove the fate of the thief--the LDS will let God decide that.

But you don't believe that the thief went to Paradise like the Bible clearly states.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin sure there is a LDS type of Gospel and that is the gospel that you believe that Abraham was under. Don't fib with me Marvin because I will call you on it every time.

BTW when are you going to give me some proof that Abraham was under this LDS type of gospel?

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And the scriptures are enough proof that Abraham was under the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Unless you think that Paul was preaching another Gospel? You don't, do you?

And calling me a liar is not Christ-like.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

There is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And the scriptures are enough proof that Abraham was under the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is the LDS gospel that same gospel that Abraham was under?

Can you show me any evidence that Abraham was under the LDS type of gospel?