The Thief

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No he is not. In context we are physically born and then spiritually born (born again).

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Nope---you are making the same mistake Nicodemus made. Interesting that you don't see the correction.

So, why do you think the apostles taught to be baptized? Where did they come up with the idea?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nope---you are making the same mistake Nicodemus made. Interesting that you don't see the correction.

You are completely ignoring the text J.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of flesh = physical birth

Born of spirit = spiritual birth (born again)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are completely ignoring the text J.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of flesh = physical birth

Born of spirit = spiritual birth (born again)

Yes, but Christ didn't say to Nicodemus that we needed to be born of the flesh---in fact---kind of a rediculous statement really--he said that we needed to be born of water (notice, he didn't say flesh).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, but Christ didn't say to Nicodemus that we needed to be born of the flesh---in fact---kind of a rediculous statement really--he said that we needed to be born of water (notice, he didn't say flesh).

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is what he said in verse 6

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is what he said in verse 6

NOTICE he did not say that which is born of the water is flesh or that which is born of the water is water. So, your correlation does not work. He is basically saying---Nicodemus you are wrong to think I am addressing being born again physically--I am talking about being born again spiritually and then goes into the lecture regarding the spirit and the wind and says ""Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven."

So, you never answered my question---regarding this scripture and what Christ taught:

2Ki 2:11 And it came to p***, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Did Elijah come down from heaven?

When we talk about the FALL of Adam, what did He fall from? To fall means to drop---where did he drop from, where was he before that he came down from?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

He is basically saying---Nicodemus you are wrong to think I am addressing being born again physically--

When you were born the first time was it physically or spiritually?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you were born the first time was it physically or spiritually?

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

--I am talking about being born again spiritually. . .

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


And it tells us how we are born again spiritually, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". This has nothing to do with water baptism.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.

So your first birth was spiritual birth? When was that exactly?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your first birth was spiritual birth? When was that exactly?

Before I came to earth:

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.


So, how is it that God made every plant "BEFORE" it was on the earth? Or every herb "before" it grew?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Before I came to earth:

And when did YOU spiritually die?

J you can try and twist the text all that you want but anyone who is open to the truth will simply see that you are completely ignoring the text so that you can maintain your preconceived theology.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Spiritually as explained by Christ to Nicodemus.

How about giving us the exact words. I do not recall Jesus saying anything of the kind to Nicodemus.

Brother Andrew

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

How about giving us the exact words. I do not recall Jesus saying anything of the kind to Nicodemus.

Brother Andrew

Christ explains that a man must be born again before he can enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus wrongly thinks that this means that a man must re-enter his mother's womb in order to accomplish this. Christ explains that he is speaking of not a physical rebirth, but a spiritual one. He then explains that the spirit is like the wind (a common Hebrew symbol for a spirit) and that when the wind hits the trees, you know it is there because the trees russle, but the wind began before it hit the trees and will go on after it hits the trees.

This is a great explanation to explain our spirits by Christ. We know that when our spirits leave our bodies, the body is dead (as the trees no longer russle) but the spirit moves on. But likewise, the spirit (or wind) was alive before it hit something physical (the trees/body). Christ then explains that no man ascends to heaven who hasn't come down from heaven first ---even Himself.

Well, to the Jew--they should be not only familiar with the symbolism of the wind for the spirit, but they should be familiar with water as a symbol of rebirth as happened with the flood for the earth or with the parting of the Red Sea for the Israelites. They should also be aware the Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind (think about the cool symbolism there.)

So, Nicodemus should have no difficulty understanding what Christ was saying regarding baptism and why Christ was baptized or what it symbolizes.

Now, you might ask--when did we spirituallly die? Well, spiritual death is what happens when we "fall"---the fall of Adam meant that he left God's presence. This fall meant death to Adam. When ever we are not in the presence of God, we die. Our lives might be extended, but death (both spiritual and physical) is our lot in life.

So, when are we physically reborn? When we are resurrected. This is a free gift to all men from Christ.

When are we spiritually reborn? When we accept God back into our lives--which Christ teaches us we do spiritually and we symbolize physically with baptism.

Christ's purpose is to bring us back to life both physically and spiritually. Hence, if anyone is really paying attention---anything Christ's asks us to do spiritually--he connects to something we do physically. This is why we have things such as baptism and the sacrament. Christ doesn't pretend we are spiritual being without physical bodies--as the salvation of both together are important to Him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Now, you might ask--when did we spirituallly die?

So we are spiritually born--then we spiritually died--then we are spiritually reborn.

Wow. You really pulled that one out of your hat J.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Christ explains that a man must be born again before he can enter the kingdom of God.

So far so good J.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nicodemus wrongly thinks that this means that a man must re-enter his mother's womb in order to accomplish this.

Right

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Christ explains that he is speaking of not a physical rebirth, but a spiritual one.

Almost right. Christ is speaking about a spiritual birth NOT a spiritual rebirth.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth or born again).

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

---Almost right. Christ is speaking about a spiritual birth NOT a spiritual rebirth.

Being born again forever excludes that possibility.

St John3:3--"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth or born again).

Again--being born again excludes any possibility of Christ referring to the physical birth--that was Nicodemus' mistake.

The statement of Christ concerning "born again" is demonstrated by Christ's statement of specifics:


St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


Christ did not divide His statement into a physical and a Spiritual. Being born again was a spiritual event--both the water and the Spirit.

Your reference in St John3:6 is to the difference between Christ's reference of being born again, found in v3---and Nicodemus' mistake of relating that to the physical birth:


St John3:4--"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? "


I have challenged you and those on this forum to please post some scriptural reference to any event that involves both the water and the Spirit, and was taught and commanded for salvation throughout the Bible--you have not produced the first one. Please allow me to help you:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Jesus Christ was the Way for all mankind to enter life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--being born again excludes any possibility of Christ referring to the physical birth--that was Nicodemus' mistake.

Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and born again (spiritual birth).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I have challenged you and those on this forum to please post some scriptural reference to any event that involves both the water and the Spirit, and was taught and commanded for salvation throughout the Bible-

John 3:3-5

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth. A person is physically born (born of water) and born again (spiritual birth).

Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

You do think the water part means a physical birth--right?

Billyray--both components of v5--the water and the Spirit--are part of being born again. Christ did not break His born again equasion into a physical part and a Spiritual part--they were both parts of a spiritual rebirth.

That was Nicodemus' mistake--believing that Christ was referring to a physical birth.

Christ was referring to a spiritual one--which involved both water and the Spirit:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born again.

Paul reinforced that:


Romans6:3-6--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

See any connection between born again and "newness of life"? That baptism was related to this "newness of life"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Then could you explain why the faith alone ***ign a physical birth to the born again equation?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?

Originally Posted by Billyray
Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?

That was an error. Born again means spiritual birth. Born of water means physical birth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray
Sure. Because in context to the surrounding born again means being physically born. There is no mention whatsoever of water baptism in these verse.

dberrie----Hummm. Could you contrast that to your previous answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billyray
Born again doesn't mean physical birth, it means spiritual birth

Originally Posted by Billyray

That was an error. Born again means spiritual birth. Born of water means physical birth.

What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Where is your scripture that demonstrates this being born again process? Here is mine:

Matthew3:16--"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

Being born of water and of the Spirit.

Please post your scripture that demonstrates being born of water and of the Spirit--because one must see it throughout the scriptures, as no one could enter heaven without it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water is not spiritual rebirth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
What part of Christ's born again statement--is not a spiritual rebirth:

St John3:5--"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Originally Posted by Billyray

Born of water is not spiritual rebirth.

So--when Christ states unless a man is born of water and the Spirit--they cannot enter into heaven--only half of that is spiritual rebirth?