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Thread: My Take on Why Mormons Become Athiests

  1. #26
    Libby
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    Would you answer my questions first, please?

  2. #27
    Libby
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    TEXTUAL VARIANT: A version of a text that has differences in wording or structure compared with other texts, especially one with missing lines or extra lines added. In some cases, textual variants reflect the difference between an author's early version or rough draft of a work and a later version or polished final product.

  3. #28
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Okay, that's kind of what I thought.

    Really, this change in the Book of Mormon, from "white" to "pure" could be considered a variant...yes?
    With the Book of Mormon you have zero ancient m****cripts that pre date Joseph, which screams fraud right off the bat. Second in the case with the Book of Mormon you have an original document via Joseph so you don't have any variants. Any changes would be an alteration from the original m****cript.

  4. #29
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    TEXTUAL VARIANT: A version of a text that has differences in wording or structure compared with other texts, especially one with missing lines or extra lines added. In some cases, textual variants reflect the difference between an author's early version or rough draft of a work and a later version or polished final product.
    If you made hundreds of hand written copies from an original document you would likely have hundreds if not thousands of variants. But it would be highly likely that you would be able to determine the original simply by comparing the various copies despite having hundreds if not thousands of variants.

  5. #30
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    Libby, back to the original question of "why Mormons become atheists"--I can tell you my take. As I have looked at the arguments against Mormonism, if I do a little research, I find that those same arguments destroy Christianity and even more so "evangelicalism" as evangelicalism has the flimsiest of foundations (but lets not get into that).

    So, I start researching the Bible and the background of the Bible and I come across information from scholars not only noting the changes, but also when some of these changes were thought to come about. Well, some of these things makes one question the authenticity of the Bible authors all together, truth be told.

    What Billyray tries to shrug off as "variations" in text, can be found to be down right huge changes and if you really study up--you can even find that the basic theology has changed over time.

    This isn't my take on it, these are the readings that I come across from scholarly journals, people with their doctorates in divinity, etc.

    So, then I have to ask myself--is ANY of this true? What I have to fall back on is my own personal spiritual experience coupled with my life experiences. Ultimately, I have to say, what I am taught on the basics is true and so I have to ***ume that the source I am learning this from is true.

    I will give an example. In the Bible (as well as in Mormonism), we are taught that fornication and adultery is wrong and an offense to God. Now, there is a lot of pull when you are dating and a teenager to let yourself give into the temptations of the body. So, how did religion play out for me. Well, first I had faith that what I was taught was true. Second, I believed that there was a God and God had a Son who atoned for my sins. Third, God was there to help me both resist temptation and to be forgiven for sin.

    Well, the way this worked is that I did see this work in my life. I saw that I could resist temptation. Also, when I younger and had an incident in which I was somewhat molested (I say somewhat because it was a one time incident and not a lot happned), I prayed and received an answer which was to go talk to my mother about it. I had a lot of guilt around the incident. I did as I was instructed to in my prayer and spoke to my mother. She explained it was not my fault and then took steps to protect me. I prayed again and I knew I had followed the counsel of the Holy Ghost. I understood the sweetness of a loving God. As I dated, I had already learned the guilt ***ociated with unappropriate sexual behaviors and so I was very careful regarding who I would date and what I would allow (I never even so much as allowed a guy to french kiss me). Now I have been married for many years and I see the result of what following the wise counsel of the prophets throughout the ages leads to---a very trusting marriage and ***urance of your own self control as well as your spouse's ability to self control. This brings happiness not only for me, but also for my children who have been raised in a loving, stable home.

    Okay, so--what does it matter regarding chas***y? Well, because I can look at all the talk around the Bible or the Book of Mormon and ask myself if any of it is true OR I can look to my own life, my own spiritual experiences and see that what I have been taught is true. As those spiritual experiences have grown, I can then have confidence that what these prophets teach that I have not had first hand experience with is also true--that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and that He died for me and that I will raise from the dead and that I will be with Him and my family again. This means a lot to me. And so I reject all the historians (whether for the Bible or for the Book of Mormon) who would cast doubt on my testimony.

    That is why when I am asked for proof, I say--my life; because that is the proof that matters to me.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  6. #31
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I g n o r a n t is an accurate description of your comment.
    I know.

    Hypocritical was a description of your comments....remember?

    But you sure whined and complained that you were being namecalled.

    No big deal. I just had to point out the fact that while you complain about people namecalling, you do it yourself and even justify it by claiming "what else are you going to do".

    Some would call those actions hypocritical.

    LOL

  7. #32
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    As I have looked at the arguments against Mormonism, if I do a little research, I find that those same arguments destroy Christianity and even more so "evangelicalism" as evangelicalism has the flimsiest of foundations (but lets not get into that).
    The teachings of Mormonism are not consistent with the teachings of the Bible J. So when looking at it from a Christian perspective it is laughable that you would call Christianity and specifically the Protestant position as flimsy.

  8. #33
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    What Billyray tries to shrug off as "variations" in text, can be found to be down right huge changes and if you really study up--you can even find that the basic theology has changed over time.
    Please back up your claim that a variation has changed a Christian doctrine.

    Please give me a specific verse that you are referring to and the variation. You can even use my old posts which speak about specific variations.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The teachings of Mormonism are not consistent with the teachings of the Bible J. So when looking at it from a Christian perspective it is laughable that you would call Christianity and specifically the Protestant position as flimsy.
    And the rest of my post---why I believe what I do and why some Mormons become athiests---

    So, I start researching the Bible and the background of the Bible and I come across information from scholars not only noting the changes, but also when some of these changes were thought to come about. Well, some of these things makes one question the authenticity of the Bible authors all together, truth be told.

    What Billyray tries to shrug off as "variations" in text, can be found to be down right huge changes and if you really study up--you can even find that the basic theology has changed over time.

    This isn't my take on it, these are the readings that I come across from scholarly journals, people with their doctorates in divinity, etc.

    So, then I have to ask myself--is ANY of this true? What I have to fall back on is my own personal spiritual experience coupled with my life experiences. Ultimately, I have to say, what I am taught on the basics is true and so I have to ***ume that the source I am learning this from is true.

    I will give an example. In the Bible (as well as in Mormonism), we are taught that fornication and adultery is wrong and an offense to God. Now, there is a lot of pull when you are dating and a teenager to let yourself give into the temptations of the body. So, how did religion play out for me. Well, first I had faith that what I was taught was true. Second, I believed that there was a God and God had a Son who atoned for my sins. Third, God was there to help me both resist temptation and to be forgiven for sin.

    Well, the way this worked is that I did see this work in my life. I saw that I could resist temptation. Also, when I younger and had an incident in which I was somewhat molested (I say somewhat because it was a one time incident and not a lot happned), I prayed and received an answer which was to go talk to my mother about it. I had a lot of guilt around the incident. I did as I was instructed to in my prayer and spoke to my mother. She explained it was not my fault and then took steps to protect me. I prayed again and I knew I had followed the counsel of the Holy Ghost. I understood the sweetness of a loving God. As I dated, I had already learned the guilt ***ociated with unappropriate sexual behaviors and so I was very careful regarding who I would date and what I would allow (I never even so much as allowed a guy to french kiss me). Now I have been married for many years and I see the result of what following the wise counsel of the prophets throughout the ages leads to---a very trusting marriage and ***urance of your own self control as well as your spouse's ability to self control. This brings happiness not only for me, but also for my children who have been raised in a loving, stable home.

    Okay, so--what does it matter regarding chas***y? Well, because I can look at all the talk around the Bible or the Book of Mormon and ask myself if any of it is true OR I can look to my own life, my own spiritual experiences and see that what I have been taught is true. As those spiritual experiences have grown, I can then have confidence that what these prophets teach that I have not had first hand experience with is also true--that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and that He died for me and that I will raise from the dead and that I will be with Him and my family again. This means a lot to me. And so I reject all the historians (whether for the Bible or for the Book of Mormon) who would cast doubt on my testimony.

    That is why when I am asked for proof, I say--my life; because that is the proof that matters to me.
    __________________
    Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Please back up your claim that a variation has changed a Christian doctrine.

    Please give me a specific verse that you are referring to and the variation. You can even use my old posts which speak about specific variations.
    It not a specific verse, it is studying the history of the Bible and what is being uncovered at more and more information is coming forward.

    I shouldn't say--the history of the Bible and how it came to be, but rather the history of what is within the Bible itself and what we are learning about it through a historical look.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Well, because I can look at all the talk around the Bible or the Book of Mormon and ask myself if any of it is true OR I can look to my own life, my own spiritual experiences and see that what I have been taught is true. . .That is why when I am asked for proof, I say--my life; because that is the proof that matters to me.
    People from all religions could make the same claim as you but this doesn't mean all faiths that are mutually exclusive are true. That is the problem with this type of proof J it doesn't hold water and doesn't prove Mormonism to be true.

  12. #37
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It not a specific verse, it is studying the history of the Bible and what is being uncovered at more and more information is coming forward.
    Please back up your claim J. Give me a specific verse and variation that you feel has changed the Christian doctrine over time.

  13. #38
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It not a specific verse, it is studying the history of the Bible and what is being uncovered at more and more information is coming forward.
    How does this change God's word?

  14. #39
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    What Billyray tries to shrug off as "variations" in text, can be found to be down right huge changes and if you really study up-
    Show me these HUGE changes with respect to NT variations?

  15. #40
    Billyray
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    Why do LDS members leave and become atheist? There are likely many reasons but the obvious one for me is that you have a non Christian who leaves Mormonism and remains a non Christian.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do LDS members leave and become atheist? There are likely many reasons but the obvious one for me is that you have a non Christian who leaves Mormonism and remains a non Christian.
    Billyray, you want me to argue with you regarding Christianity---the Bible, etc. I am giving you MY take. When you provide and argument and I do a little research into it---what I find destroys YOUR belief system as well as my own. You may want to sit and argue why this can't be so, but this is MY experience. I can see easily then, why Mormons, when confronted with tactics such as yours, when they start digging to verify what YOU say, find that not only their religion, but ALL religions start to fall apart. WHY? Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.

    Therefore, for me, I must fall back then on my own spiritual experiences, my own faith, and my own life experiences to come to a knowledge that what is taught is true---because HISTORY won't do it; much as you would like to think it does. Historians rip your religion to bits and once the Bible can be proven false---then Christians, Muslims, Mormons, JW's----all of these religions crumble.

    The truth be told---one of the sources that I turn to to verify the Bible IS the Book of Mormon because I know the Book of Mormon is true, therefore, the "history" shown of the Bible by historians is less likely to destroy my testimony of it (the Bible).

    And this makes me wonder if one of the tactics of "evangelicals' is to keep their followers conscentrating on the "cults' because it it one way in which to keep them unified and i.gnorant to the fact that their destructive, critical-eye tactics are destructive to ALL Biblically based religions.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  17. #42
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.
    Tell me how the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart.

  18. #43
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The truth be told---one of the sources that I turn to to verify the Bible IS the Book of Mormon because I know the Book of Mormon is true, therefore, the "history" shown of the Bible by historians is less likely to destroy my testimony of it (the Bible).
    Yet nothing validates the history of the Book of Mormon which to most thinking people shows that is not what it says it is and if you can't trust the historical aspect you can't trust the spiritual aspect of what is taught in it.

  19. #44
    Libby
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    Libby, back to the original question of "why Mormons become atheists"--I can tell you my take. As I have looked at the arguments against Mormonism, if I do a little research, I find that those same arguments destroy Christianity and even more so "evangelicalism" as evangelicalism has the flimsiest of foundations (but lets not get into that).
    Julie, yes, this is very true. I think that's the reason Christians don't like it, when LDS start doing comparisons. They call it dodging or diversion, but, really, they know that the same criticisms they lodge against the LDS Church (and many other religions) can be used against their own. Not only the textual variant argument, but all of their claims regarding the real core of Christianity (the miracles and visions, the resurrection, etc)...none of that can be objectively proven, and must be accepted based on faith.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Tell me how the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart.
    Billyray, I am not going to argue this with you. I am telling you my experience as I research what you, Brian, and others say and the tactics you use. I think you think you talk to us in a vacuum, where the Internet is not avaible and that we will take everything you say at face value. The fact of the matter is though that as I have started to look at your arguments and others, what it does it destroy religion in general.

    So, I guess the question is---is this a trend that is seen---Mormons leave their religion to go to athiesm? You can guess all you want regarding this. I am telling you MY experience based on what occurs here--which is, I either had to decide that I was going to believe what I believe based on faith or on history because once I look at the history side and use the arguments you provide--ALL religions based on the Bible start to fail. Therefore, I can make one of two choices---either the Bible is right and historians are still figuring things out or the historians have it right and what we believe is wrong and that our "religion" will just evolve into something new in the next 100 years.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  21. #46
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    They call it dodging or diversion, but, really, they know that the same criticisms they lodge against the LDS Church (and many other religions) can be used against their own.
    Libby you said that you were here to defend truth. (mod edit)

    A criticism against the Book of Mormon is that there are not any ancient m****cripts for the B of M. Can this same argument be used against the Bible?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Julie, yes, this is very true. I think that's the reason Christians don't like it, when LDS start doing comparisons. They call it dodging or diversion, but, really, they know that the same criticisms they lodge against the LDS Church (and many other religions) can be used against their own. Not only the textual variant argument, but all of their claims regarding the real core of Christianity (the miracles and visions, the resurrection, etc)...none of that can be objectively proven, and must be accepted based on faith.
    Not only that Libby---but you can see that theology has evolved over the ages. If anything, Joseph Smith was more in touch with ancient traditions than those of today---but if we must rely on historical studies to determine what to believe, at what point do we choose? Any evangelical or protestant with any sense of honest self evaluation would have to say that they have in some ways departed from what was before them.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #48
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    With the Book of Mormon you have zero ancient m****cripts that pre date Joseph, which screams fraud right off the bat. Second in the case with the Book of Mormon you have an original document via Joseph so you don't have any variants. Any changes would be an alteration from the original m****cript.
    Not sure about your logic, here, Billy.

    The original Bible m****cripts had zero "ancient m****cripts". Does that mean they were "frauds", when they were first written?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The fact of the matter is though that as I have started to look at your arguments and others, what it does it destroy religion in general.
    And I see this as a common LDS tactic to try and sure up their own beliefs. Try to discredit the Bible which somehow validates your own faith. To me that doesn't make a lot of sense but it must to you.

  25. #50
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Not only that Libby---but you can see that theology has evolved over the ages. If anything, Joseph Smith was more in touch with ancient traditions than those of today---but if we must rely on historical studies to determine what to believe, at what point do we choose? Any evangelical or protestant with any sense of honest self evaluation would have to say that they have in some ways departed from what was before them.
    Yes, very true.

    I have become a big believer in personal revelation. Frankly, that's the only thing I trust, these days. It's not unlike what you described about living a principle and learning it for yourself. That was a good description of how God's principles can be actually "known", in a very real way.

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