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Thread: My Take on Why Mormons Become Athiests

  1. #51
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And I see this as a common LDS tactic to try and sure up their own beliefs. Try to discredit the Bible which somehow validates your own faith. To me that doesn't make a lot of sense but it must to you.
    I have never seen an LDS try and "discredit the Bible", although, they do get accused of that, every single time they try to show you how your arguments against the Book of Mormon, etc, can be applied to the Bible. The point is, Billy, that most all religion, including acceptance of scripture, is primarily based on faith.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    And I see this as a common LDS tactic to try and sure up their own beliefs. Try to discredit the Bible which somehow validates your own faith. To me that doesn't make a lot of sense but it must to you.
    You see this as a tactic---I see this as a reality. The way it comes across to me is that what you see as "common LDS tactic" is a common evangelical defense tactic. As long as you get defensive about what we are seeing, you will never understand what we are seeing and why.

    If you remember, this thread addresse "why Mormons become athiests." I am merely giving you my experience as to what you criticisms of my religion did and the following research I discovered as a result. You can claim this is a "tactic" all you want, but it will only prevent you from seeing another's experience through their eyes.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  3. #53
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billyray
    With the Book of Mormon you have zero ancient m****cripts that pre date Joseph, which screams fraud right off the bat.

    Not sure about your logic, here, Billy.

    The original Bible m****cripts had zero "ancient m****cripts". Does that mean they were "frauds", when they were first written?
    Libby do you honestly not know what I am talking about? (mod edit)

    How many ancient m****cripts for the Book of Mormon do we have that pre date Joseph Smith? None. Why is that do you think?

  4. #54
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I have never seen an LDS try and "discredit the Bible",
    J just tried to do that a few post back

    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.
    Libby you are here to defend the truth. Is J's statement supporting or attempting to discredit the Bible?

  5. #55
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Libby do you honestly not know what I am talking about? (mod edit)

    How many ancient m****cripts for the Book of Mormon do we have that pre date Joseph Smith? None. Why is that do you think?
    I think that you probably think it is because Joseph (or one or more of his cohorts) actually wrote the Book of Mormon. I certainly wouldn't disregard that, as a possibility.

  6. #56
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    J just tried to do that a few post back



    Libby you are here to defend the truth. Is J's statement supporting or attempting to discredit the Bible?
    Well, since I know that Julie is LDS and believes the Bible is inspired and God's word (as far as translated correctly), I know that she is not trying to "discredit" it. I think she is showing you that it definitely has some problems, and one has to be discriminating, when accepting as "God's truth" things that are in there. That doesn't mean the Bible, as a whole, is not inspired by God. You are engaging in black and white thinking again.

  7. #57
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Well, since I know that Julie is LDS and believes the Bible is inspired and God's word (as far as translated correctly), I know that she is not trying to "discredit" it.
    "Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart."

    Tell me what J's statement means.

  8. #58
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I think that you probably think it is because Joseph (or one or more of his cohorts) actually wrote the Book of Mormon.
    Why do you think that not a shred of ancient writings have surfaced that would confirm the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon in the Americas?

  9. #59
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Why do you think that not a shred of ancient writings have surfaced that would confirm the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon in the Americas?
    I don't know. And, any answer to that question is speculation.

  10. #60
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Well, since I know that Julie is LDS and believes the Bible is inspired and God's word (as far as translated correctly), I know that she is not trying to "discredit" it.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    What Billyray tries to shrug off as "variations" in text, can be found to be down right huge changes and if you really study up-
    Libby is this statement from J supporting the Bible as we have it today or discrediting it?

  11. #61
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Well, since I know that Julie is LDS and believes the Bible is inspired and God's word (as far as translated correctly)
    Can you tell me what verses you believe are not translated correctly?

  12. #62
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    "Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart."

    Tell me what J's statement means.
    I think she is telling you that a good (scholarly) case can be made that could rip the Bible right out from under your feet (just as you all try to do with the Book of Mormon). Which is why one needs to have faith.

  13. #63
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I think she is telling you that a good (scholarly) case can be made that could rip the Bible right out from under your feet. Which is why one needs to have faith.
    So is she supporting the Bible or trying to discredit it?

  14. #64
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can you tell me what verses you believe are not translated correctly?
    No. I am not a Bible scholar.

  15. #65
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    No. I am not a Bible scholar.
    Any guesses at all at a single verse that you feel is translated incorrectly?

    And if you can come up with one how does the incorrect translation change the meaning of the verse in your opinion?

  16. #66
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So is she supporting the Bible or trying to discredit it?
    Both.

    I think she is, basically, saying what I have already told you, numerous times. Religion is based on faith and personal spiritual experiences...not on scholarship. This is where Christians, trying to tear down other religions, based on scholarship, miss the boat. They also, often, take an axe to their own spiritual tree.

  17. #67
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Any guesses at all at a single verse that you feel is translated incorrectly?
    I couldn't presume to even guess at what might be wrongly translated. I can tell you what I believe (from personal experience and revelation) is NOT from God...but, that's not quite the same thing.

  18. #68
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Both.
    "Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.

    Is J's statement above supportive of the Bible or discrediting it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    "Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.

    Is J's statement above supportive of the Bible or discrediting it?
    Did you read my whole post as to why I believe the Bible? As usual, Billyray, you take one sentence and make it into your whole view. It is like seeing only the trunk of an elephant and then pounding that view as a way to ignore the elephant. And yes, there is an elephant in the room here.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  20. #70
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Did you read my whole post as to why I believe the Bible? As usual, Billyray, you take one sentence and make it into your whole view. It is like seeing only the trunk of an elephant and then pounding that view as a way to ignore the elephant. And yes, there is an elephant in the room here.
    Was your statement supportive of the Bible or was it your way to discredit the Bible?

  21. #71
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Something that we keep seeing on boards like this one from critics of Mormonism is the idea that Mormonism is not true or false based on anything other than Mormonism. The critics use this as an excuse to refuse having an actualy discussion or dialogue about faith or Jesus Christ. So whenever a critic is asked to engage in an actual discussion, meaning they also answer questions about THEIR positions and beliefs, they hide behind this self-made cloak to avoid sharing their beliefs of what they believe to be true.

    The critics seem to think that, since Mormonism is either true or not regardless of the critcs' faith, that they are not obligated to share their faith. But if the critics' faith is true (which obviously they believe it is), then by nit sharing it and presenting something better for the LDS to accept and leave Mormonism, they are not really doing any Christian service or witnessing for Jesus Christ. For them, the end is to get someone out of Mormonism but not to get them to follow Jesus like they do. Now I realize the critics' response will be that in order for them to find the "real Jesus" the Mormon needs to have their current paradigm transformed and so they have to tear down that paradigm. But that is simply a rouse to avoid actually sharing with the LDS why THEIR beliefs are the correct way.

    The most prolific critics that post here have actually professed that they are not here to discuss whether Mormonism is true or not, but rather to ask questions of Mormons and then sit high on their loft and scoffing at the Mormon's answers and claiming that whatever answer is given is a sign of the mental deficiency that is in the minds of LDS people. So much for bringing people closer to Jesus!!

    Then you have the other MO of the critics that say, "I'm not here to discuss MY faith. Your faith-claims are not determined by mine." But they don't seem to realize that if their own faith is not sufficient to share and hopefully (in their eyes) replace the LDS faith, then what good is it to tear down the LDS faith without replacing it with what they believe is better, superior, and true?
    You are right. To a large extent the doctrines are ignored to the use of what mormons do instead of what they believe.. While that is true it is also is not wrong in the doing since we can't see the hearts of the LDS we must see their faith thought their works (James 2:18). When we do that mormonism fails completely, but that isn't fair either because Christian too fail in doing the work of Love that Jesus commanded..

    I know that NE is big on that. She sees the truth or the lie of a message by how the members of a church have treated her.. As I have said this is both right and wrong.. While I support her in her feelings about the horrible way she had been treated by many LDS I am more into doctrinal reasons for seeing mormon is as a made invented LIE..

    The Biggest most terrible doctrine of the LDS church is the teaching of Smith that God the Father "Became God". That there was once a time when he was our peer (intelligence existence), there was another when He was a mere man, and then became a god through obedience to laws and ordinances. God became a God? It doesn't stop there. Continuing on that theme Jesus also became God after being born (first born is granted) in a spirit world as our spirit brother along with the being that became Satan he formed the world as directed by the Father.. He had no power to create anything but to only form the eternal elements (At least you believe something is eternal) into the world we now live on.. All this disagrees with the Bible that says God has always been God, From everlasting to everlasting He is God. Jesus is taught to have been with Father as God from the beginning.

    Yet mormonism teaches he is a creation.. Your Father in Heaven, and your Jesus are both created beings, they are NOT the everlasting God. Everlasting to Everlasting is the extent of time He has been God it is NOT A ***LE.. Therefore the Bible teaches that God has been God from eternity past and will continue as such into eternity future. Denying that is to reinvent God and making an idol from an image of your own imagination instead of just believing what He has told us about Himself though His word.. As long as you hold this man invented God you will never be a Christian no matter what names or works you ascribe to your idol formed by a man instead of submitting to the God that formed man.. IHS jim

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Was your statement supportive of the Bible or was it your way to discredit the Bible?
    It was supportive of the Bible as my ultimate conclusion based on faith, spiritual experience, and my life point to its truthfullness.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #73
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It was supportive of the Bible as my ultimate conclusion based on faith, spiritual experience, and my life point to its truthfullness.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I can see easily then, why Mormons, when confronted with tactics such as yours, when they start digging to verify what YOU say, find that not only their religion, but ALL religions start to fall apart. WHY? Because if the fundamentals of the Bible fall apart, all religions that rely on Abraham as one of their central figures start to fall apart.
    Tell me why you believe your statement is supportive of the Bible because it certainly doesn't sound supportive to me.

  24. #74
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The truth be told---one of the sources that I turn to to verify the Bible IS the Book of Mormon because I know the Book of Mormon is true, therefore, the "history" shown of the Bible by historians is less likely to destroy my testimony of it (the Bible).
    Without the Book of Mormon and your faith based based on the B of M would you find the Bible reliable or unreliable?

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Tell me why you believe your statement is supportive of the Bible because it certainly doesn't sound supportive to me.
    Yes, I am sure out of context it might appear that way, which is why you need to continue reading and put it in context.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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