My Take on Why Mormons Become Athiests

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Circular argument. Please provide proof outside of the scriptures that the world was created in 7 days.

Why do you think that it is a circular argument?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why do you think that it is a circular argument?

Because you are using the source of your belief as the proof of your belief. It is a circular argument.

Circular reasoning, or in other words, paradoxical thinking, is a type of formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is ***umed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. (From Wiki).

Your argument is that since you believe part of the Bible is true and that part of the Bible confirms the other part of the Bible, it must all be true.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because you are using the source of your belief as the proof of your belief. It is a circular argument.

The source of my belief is in independent eye witness records.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The source of my belief is in independent eye witness records.

Nope, the eye-witness records are part of the Bible; hence, we must have evidence outside of it.

One way I could argue the same way is that since Joseph Smith is a prophet and he states that the Book of Mormon is true, then it must be true. We also have eye-witnesses to the Book of Mormon as a record. Hence, since we have witnesses that it exists, then Joseph Smith must be telling the truth and if Joseph Smith is telling the truth, then he must be a prophet and the Book of Mormon must be true.

But you do not ask us to provide proof from within our beliefs or faith or those who likewise believe, but you ask us to provide proof from outside sources.

On that basis, please provide your outside source that the earth was created in 7 days.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nope, the eye-witness records are part of the Bible; hence, we must have evidence outside of it.

The Bible is made up of individual books. That basis for my belief is Jesus is from the independent eye witness testimony.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible is made up of individual books. That basis for my belief is Jesus is from the independent eye witness testimony.

In other words, you cannot provide an outside source which backs the claim that the earth was made in 7 days.

So, now if I was to you use your tactics, I would just hen-peck you asking for a source from without the Bible to back your claims.

Billyray, do you think I could provide scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old and was not created in the time frame of the Bible and thereby refute your circular argument?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

In other words, you cannot provide an outside source which backs the claim that the earth was made in 7 days.

The reason I believe in the OT writings is because I believe that Jesus is God which is based on eyewitness testimony from independent witnesses of Jesus' life death and resurrection.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, do you think I could provide scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old and was not created in the time frame of the Bible and thereby refute your circular argument?

The Bible does not tell us how old the earth is J.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The reason I believe in the OT writings is because I believe that Jesus is God which is based on eyewitness testimony from independent witnesses of Jesus' life death and resurrection.

As Brian would say, Irrelevant. It is a circular argument which provides no outside evidence and can be easily refuted by science. I would then go into a long scientific diatribe (and if i am Brian, I would provide no sources) and then make you find evidence to counter his "evidence." If I rely on faith or the evidence of my eye-witnesses, then that is considered irrelevant and that I cannot answer his charge. He would make sure to include insults regarding how I have been pre-programmed, etc.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible does not tell us how old the earth is J.

It states that the earth was created in 7 days and then gives a time line of generations and how old the patriarchs live. Based on this, one can figure the approximate age of the earth starting from Adam to Moses, from Moses to Christ, etc.

So, can you provide proof that the earth was created in 7 days.

Now, I can go look up a quote from one of your favorite quoted sites which says:

Answer: Given the fact that, according to the Bible, Adam was created on the sixth day of our planet’s existence, we can determine a biblically-based, approximate age for the earth by looking at the chronological details of the human race. This ***umes that the Genesis account is accurate, that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour periods, and that there were no ambiguous gaps in the chronology of Genesis.

The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters 5 and 11 provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each fathered the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and adding up the ages provided in Genesis 5 and 11, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years. http://www.gotquestions.org/earth-age.html

Now I can ask you over and over again if you agree with this quote.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It states that the earth was created in 7 days and then gives a time line of generations and how old the patriarchs live. Based on this, one can figure the approximate age of the earth starting from Adam to Moses, from Moses to Christ, etc.

Where does it give us the age of the earth?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is a circular argument which provides no outside evidence and can be easily refuted by science.

It is not a circular argument at all.

In a court of law you call independent witness to testify about a particular event. How is this different that independent writings that testify about an ancient event?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it give us the age of the earth?

Now, I can go look up a quote from one of your favorite quoted sites which says:

Quote:
Answer: Given the fact that, according to the Bible, Adam was created on the sixth day of our planet’s existence, we can determine a biblically-based, approximate age for the earth by looking at the chronological details of the human race. This ***umes that the Genesis account is accurate, that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour periods, and that there were no ambiguous gaps in the chronology of Genesis.

The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters 5 and 11 provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each fathered the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and adding up the ages provided in Genesis 5 and 11, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years. http://www.gotquestions.org/earth-age.html

Now I can ask you over and over again if you agree with this quote.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is a circular argument which provides no outside evidence and can be easily refuted by science.

How is my argument refuted by science?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is not a circular argument at all.

In a court of law you call independent witness to testify about a particular event. How is this different that independent writings that testify about an ancient event?

Yes, but those eye-witnesses are not here. I likewise have eye-witnesses to my faith.

The question now is can your circular argument refute scientific evidence.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Now I can ask you over and over again if you agree with this quote.

The Bible does not tell us how old the earth is J. If you think that it does then please give me a verse.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How is my argument refuted by science?

I will do what you do.

First off--do you agree with this statement from other Christians who claim they have answers and which you yourself have quoted many times:

"it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years."

From scientific sources: "briefly the evidence that has convinced scientists that the Earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old."

Radiometric dating is one scientific method used to date the earth:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalr...age_earth.html

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, but those eye-witnesses are not here. I likewise have eye-witnesses to my faith.

They were still eye witnesses of the events and is no different than eye witness testimony we have today. If we have written testimony of witnesses today and look at their written testimony is 100 years what they have said is still eye witness testimony despite them being dead.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible does not tell us how old the earth is J. If you think that it does then please give me a verse.

Do you agree with the statement:

"it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years."

from a source you have used often on this site to answer questions.

I will continue to ask you this question over and over and over again until it comes across as hen-pecking.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

They were still eye witnesses of the events and is no different than eye witness testimony we have today. If we have written testimony of witnesses today and look at their written testimony is 100 years what they have said is still eye witness testimony despite them being dead.

Good, I have eye-witnesses that the gold plates exist and that these eye-witnesses saw an angel who testified to them. I likewise have eye-witnesses to my faith. Yet, this is still a circular argument when you use your scriptures as a source to believe your scriptures.

If I was Brian, I would continue to just say "irrelevant" to your claims. Can you PROVE that the earth was created in 7 days. If you cannot prove this, you must be wrong---according to Brian anyways.

[BigJulie]

Can you now see how this works Billyray, that the tactics you use to destroy Mormonism and other faiths are the same tactics that can be used to destroy faith in general?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

"it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years."

From scientific sources: "briefly the evidence that has convinced scientists that the Earth is 4.5 to 4.6 billion years old."

Radiometric dating is one scientific method used to date the earth:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalr...age_earth.html

My argument mentioned nothing about the age of the earth. Please tell me how science refutes my argument which is reprinted below.

The reason I believe in the OT writings is because I believe that Jesus is God which is based on eyewitness testimony from independent witnesses of Jesus' life death and resurrection.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Can you now see how this works Billyray, that the tactics you use to destroy Mormonism and other faiths are the same tactics that can be used to destroy faith in general?

Not at all. We have ancient m****cripts which are eye witness testimony of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. These eye witness testimonies validates the claims that Jesus is who he claims to be which is God.

Now compare this to the Book of Mormon. There is no evidence that pre dates Joseph that this people group ever lived in the Americas. This is completely different than we have for the individual books of the Bible that testify about Jesus'.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

My argument mentioned nothing about the age of the earth. Please tell me how science refutes my argument which is reprinted below.

I didn't ask you regarding what you mentioned---I found a quote from a christian source that you often use and found this quote:

"it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years."


I only asked if you agree or disagree with it. Can you not answer that question?

See Billyray, this is often one of your tactics. When I try to tell you what I believe, you go to a source that you think is "doctrine" to me and then you find a quote in which you think disagrees with my belief and then you ask over and over and over again if I agree or disagree with it. Do you see how this tactic can then be used to destroy christianity as well? You yourself are even ignoring my question---and this is something that Mormons are often criticized for doing.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all. We have ancient m****cripts which are eye witness testimony of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. In these eye witness testimonies validates the claims of Jesus as God.

Now compare this to the Book of Mormon. There is no evidence that pre dates Joseph that this people group ever lived in the Americas. This is completely different than we have for the individual books of the Bible that testify about Jesus'.

There is no evidence that pre-dates Moses that the earth was created in 7 days. Please provide your outside evidence that is was.

Billyray, do you remember what this thread is about. To me, you adamently trying to back your beliefs against science is no different than me trying to back my beliefs against your "proof." Why then would someone, when they leave Mormonism, go to athiesm. Because in destroying the faith of other religions, you destroy faith in christianity. Now, you can argue until you are blue in the face that it is not the same--but the fact of the matter, it doesn't matter if you think it is the same or not it matter if THEY think it is the same.