My Take on Why Mormons Become Athiests

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I have also studied the Bible, for two years every 4. And I see that they do align with what the Bible teaches. And I understand why you don't think so. The blind can never appreciate the sunset.

Marvin

Fair enough let's test you theory.

Where does the Bible teach about a heavenly mother?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough let's test you theory.

Where does the Bible teach about a heavenly mother?

First, cite the scripture that shows that this is a doctrine of the church!

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

First, cite the scripture that shows that this is a doctrine of the church!

Marvin

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

Cite the scripture that proves this is doctrine and not just a teaching.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Cite the scripture that proves this is doctrine and not just a teaching.

Marvin

This is taught in Gospel Principles

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

[BigJulie]

I can see that Billyray has effectively taken this off-topic. Isn't this considered a "mormon tactic"? The question was poised why Mormons become athiests. I am still waiting for your proof Billyray that the earth was created in 6 days (and a rest day) so that you can prove that the Bible is historically correct.

As we have already had a long discussion that the belief that there is a mother in heaven is not one found in our scriptures, but we come to it by logic--if God tells us He is our Father and He is the one who created male and and female in "His image", and He is the one who created the ins***ution of marriage, we come to this conclusion by logic.

That said, let's see if you can get back on the topic or if you prefer to stay in your comfortable zone of only critiquing Mormons and have no ability to defend like-criticisms of your own stance. I stated I believe in the Bible by faith and not by historical proof. Since you demand historical proof, please do provide it. If you cannot, then this is precisely why the destructive means you use to destroy my faith also destroy your own.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I can see that Billyray has effectively taken this off-topic.

Every single thread seems to go off target eventually.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am still waiting for your proof Billyray that the earth was created in 6 days (and a rest day) so that you can prove that the Bible is historically correct.

You can't prove every aspect of the history of the Bible and certainly not the part that takes place prior to any single person even setting foot on the earth. But you can prove certain aspects of the history of the Bible, such as people groups, places, and ancient m****cripts. For the Book of Mormon I am not requiring a different standard but the same standard. I don't expect for you to show every single detail and every single event that ever took place in Book of Mormon history but for some validation for people groups, places, ancient m****cript to validate the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am still waiting for your proof Billyray that the earth was created in 6 days (and a rest day) so that you can prove that the Bible is historically correct.

Do you think anyone can give us exact details for events that took place at the point of creation of the universe including scientists?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

As I have looked at the arguments against Mormonism, if I do a little research, I find that those same arguments destroy Christianity and even more so "evangelicalism" as evangelicalism has the flimsiest of foundations (but lets not get into that).

J you claim that the SAME arguments that I have used against Mormonism can destroy Christianity. Are you ever going to tell me what arguments that I have used against Mormonism that would destroy Christianity. Thus far you have failed to identify them.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is taught in Gospel Principles

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

Please cite the scripture that shows that this is doctrine.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Please cite the scripture that shows that this is doctrine.

Marvin

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

lol....billy is asking the question you should have asked.

They always claim that when LDS do this they are lying for the Lord and being purposely deceptive.

<shrug>

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

lol....billy is asking the question you should have asked.

They always claim that when LDS do this they are lying for the Lord and being purposely deceptive.

Sir care to answer this easy and straightforward question?

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sir care to answer this easy and straightforward question?

So you don't believe in a heavenly mother nor do you believe that the LDS church teaches about a heavenly mother?

I would've liked to see you continue in the conversation with Russianwolfe without twisting everything around that he asks, but that isn't likely.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

I would've liked to see you continue in the conversation with Russianwolfe without twisting everything around that he asks, but that isn't likely.

And I would like to see you or him answer a very easy question.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And I would like to see you or him answer a very easy question.

Your problem is you usually refuse to answer requests or question in lieu of asking your own. This is why many LDS simply quit the conversation with you. You demand they answer you but are many times less than willing to address them.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You can't prove every aspect of the history of the Bible and certainly not the part that takes place prior to any single person even setting foot on the earth. But you can prove certain aspects of the history of the Bible, such as people groups, places, and ancient m****cripts. For the Book of Mormon I am not requiring a different standard but the same standard. I don't expect for you to show every single detail and every single event that ever took place in Book of Mormon history but for some validation for people groups, places, ancient m****cript to validate the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Okay, so if we can prove certain aspects of the Book of Mormon, is that enough to convince you it is true?

And who says you can set the parameters of what is considered "proof"---what if we can prove that even one aspect of the Book of Mormon is true---is that enough?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you think anyone can give us exact details for events that took place at the point of creation of the universe including scientists?

I think that Adam could have written what occured himself in the garden of Eden and that could have been preserved by God. Why do we have to wait all the years until Moses to give a back account? Where did Moses get the record of what occured in the Garden of Eden, etc?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, so if we can prove certain aspects of the Book of Mormon, is that enough to convince you it is true?

If the historical aspects are false then you can't trust the spiritual concepts.

If a witness on the stand gives testimony and part of his testimony that you can't check up on is false then you will not trust that witness.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Where did Moses get the record of what occured in the Garden of Eden, etc?

I don't know. It may have been oral tradition, written records, or direct relegation or a combination of all three.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If the historical aspects are false then you can't trust the spiritual concepts.

If a witness on the stand gives testimony and part of his testimony that you can't check up on is false then you will not trust that witness.

I wasn't speaking of the spiritual aspect of the Book of Mormon---I was saying that if one part of it could be proven true, would that be enough?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know. It may have been oral tradition, written records, or direct relegation or a combination of all three.

But, if you don't have any proof of anything, then is it really true? That seems to be your argument, that there must be m****cripts or some tangible proof--if not, just relying on Moses is not enough.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I wasn't speaking of the spiritual aspect of the Book of Mormon---I was saying that if one part of it could be proven true, would that be enough?

My example is perfectly relevant. The Book of Mormon has both a historical and a spiritual message. You can't verify the spiritual aspects but you can verify the historical aspects. When you check up on the parts that can be checked out (the historical) and they don't check out then there is no reason to trust the message that you can't check out.

The same applies to a witness. If a witness gives false information that can be verified should you trust the other information that he gives that can't be independently verified? Of course not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But, if you don't have any proof of anything, then is it really true? That seems to be your argument, that there must be m****cripts or some tangible proof--if not, just relying on Moses is not enough.

No go back and look at what I said. I believe Jesus is God based on independent eye witness evidence from multiple eye witnesses from multiple individual books written and different times and places. Because of this testimony I believe Jesus is God and as God he has validated the writings of the OT.