You didn't answer the question regarding what you lack--just another stab at Mormonism.
Well, then, if you go to him in prayer and He tells you nothing regarding Billyray--then I can only ***ume that He is not talking to you.
You didn't answer the question regarding what you lack--just another stab at Mormonism.
Well, then, if you go to him in prayer and He tells you nothing regarding Billyray--then I can only ***ume that He is not talking to you.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114410]
Deep in the recesses of all of Brian's argument's, wading through all of the insults and putdowns, you finally find the answer to the original question. If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD.
I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does.![]()
First of all, pointing out YOUR fallacies and false claims is not a "put down" it is a statement of the obvious. You put yourself down when you retreat behind irrational, contradictory and fallacious statements and false accusations and deliberate misrepresentations as you just did right here in the post to which I am now responding.
Secondly, had you been paying attention to my posts you would have noted that I provided a direct answer to the original question in my very first response. Your claim here is just another false ***ertion based either on a deliberate effort to deceive, or simply ignoranc e of the facts so easily observe by anyone who can read.
Finally, you have once again misrepresented my answer. The portions of my answer that you deceptively p****d out made my answer clear. But the portions you then re-***embled with the limp spittle of your own desperate rhetorical needs is rather different from what I actually said. Your putting words in my mouth is a deliberate effort to deceive, BigJ. You should be ashamed of yourself. Did you think I would not know what I wrote?
One need not wonder why you stoop to such blatantly obvious deceptive rhetorical tactics, Julie. Its obvious that you think you can fool someone with them. You can't. Well ...maybe you can fool some Mormons, including yourself.
Meanwhile I still await your explanation of how you think I can "know" that God has commanded to kill my wife without that idea being in my mind as a THOUGHT, where ONLY THOUGHTS can exist.
As for your answer, you have clearly demonstrated one of the PROFOUND differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. You would kill your own husband thinking God told you to do so. Christians, on the other hand, absent any extraordinary circumstances would have instantl;y known that any such command could not even possibly have come from God. You lack discernment because you lack knowledge of the Word of God and you do not know the Spirit of God.
In short, as is always so clear, you have been deceived, mistaking Satan for God. He's gotcha.
-BH
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[QUOTE]I understand what you wrote...you want to separate the God from the OT from the God of today. I tried to put you into their circumstance so that I could see what you would do in that cirucmstance because I understood that in that circumstance, you would understand it was God who spoke and you would also have the circumstance in which the law required the death of the adulteress. You finally gave an answer to that circumstance. You kept asking HOW I would know it was God, but that was not the question. The question was..what would you do if you were sure it was God. Hence, I gave an exact example of the Israelites who were sure it was God and asked you to reply. It is amazing what it took to get you to answer the question when all of your accusations were removed.
Finally, you have once again misrepresented my answer. The portions of my answer that you deceptively p****d out made my answer clear. But the portions you then re-***embled with the limp spittle of your own desperate rhetorical needs is rather different from what I actually said. Your putting words in my mouth is a deliberate effort to deceive, BigJ. You should be ashamed of yourself. Did you think I would not know what I wrote?
Okay, that said, here you have an Israelite who, under the law, is required to kill their wife in this circumstance. You said you are not sure you would do it. I am not sure either because even though the law required it ,I would have to have more ***urance than that. So, I would pray about it.
This is the same circumstance that Abraham faced when he sent Haggar out into the desert (a sure death for her and his son). What did Abraham do? He prayed about it and got an answer to indeed send Haggar out. Did Abraham receive an answer that God would take care of her? I don't know, very likely, but really, that is not told in the story.
But Brian, your ***ertion as to who God is and what he would say or not say is not as concrete as you believe. We have instances, not a few, where God makes it clear that HE is to be listened to and that His ways is not our ways. I certainly wouldn't support a law today that said we should stone adulterers.
Brian, this type of tactic is something you use all of the time. When you want an answer to a question---any answer we give will not suffice...you say things such as "irrelevant" etc. So, to all of your premises of the question, I saw them as irrelevant. I wanted to know what you would do if YOU for sure knew it was from God. Hence, I just gave you the circumstance of the Israelite who knew and also had been given a circumstance in which to do just that.One need not wonder why you stoop to such blatantly obvious deceptive rhetorical tactics, Julie. Its obvious that you think you can fool someone with them. You can't. Well ...maybe you can fool some Mormons, including yourself.
Let's say that God comes to you in person...parts the Red Sea, performs other miracles, etc. etc. as he did with Moses--would that be enough to convince you it was God speaking to you. Let's say it is not an thought, as God is speaking in a loud voice to you as He did with Abraham or Moses. Let's say that when He comes, He shows you the prints in His hands and feet and makes sure that you know he is the resurrected Lord. YOu never had a thought about it before and this from God is absolutely repulsive to you (as it would be for me as well)..then what---do you ignore Him?Meanwhile I still await your explanation of how you think I can "know" that God has commanded to kill my wife without that idea being in my mind as a THOUGHT, where ONLY THOUGHTS can exist.
Your spin again...not thinking..."know for sure"---you keep wanting to change this to fit what you hope we asked rather than what we really asked.As for your answer, you have clearly demonstrated one of the PROFOUND differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity. You would kill your own husband thinking God told you to do so.
Why didn't the Israelites know?Christians, on the other hand, absent any extraordinary circumstances would have instantl;y known that any such command could not even possibly have come from God.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Here was your question
And here was my answer
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114413]You clearly do NOT understand what I said, or you have deliberately tried to misrepresent what I said. You said "If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD". That is not what I said. What I said was that if I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would indeed have an obligation to obey the law and kill my wife. But that is not the question being asked here. No such conditions were ever stated in the orginal question as anyone who can read can see for themselves. You seem to think that no one can actually READ.I understand what you wrote...you want to separate the God from the OT from the God of today. I tried to put you into their circumstance so that I could see what you would do in that cirucmstance because I understood that in that circumstance, you would understand it was God who spoke and you would also have the circumstance in which the law required the death of the adulteress. You finally gave an answer to that circumstance. You kept asking HOW I would know it was God, but that was not the question. The question was..what would you do if you were sure it was God. Hence, I gave an exact example of the Israelites who were sure it was God and asked you to reply. It is amazing what it took to get you to answer the question when all of your accusations were removed.
False. The Israelites have the word of God which gives the precise conditions of the law which lack from the original question you are now avoiding to advance your deliberate deceptions, Julie.I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does.
Okay. I am sure your husband is glad to hear that you would not kill him if, for example, the LDS "prophet" told him to as Brigham Young told the Mormon Danites to kill those who p***ed through the Mountain Meadows territory that they regarded as their own.Okay, that said, here you have an Israelite who, under the law, is required to kill their wife in this circumstance. You said you are not sure you would do it. I am not sure either because even though the law required it ,I would have to have more ***urance than that. So, I would pray about it.
No its not.This is the same circumstance that Abraham faced when he sent Haggar out into the desert (a sure death for her and his son). What did Abraham do? He prayed about it and got an answer to indeed send Haggar out. Did Abraham receive an answer that God would take care of her? I don't know, very likely, but really, that is not told in the story.
Well there again is the difference between you as a Mormon and me as a Christian. I have good reason to belive that the word of God is entirely concrete and I have all necessary and sufficient reason to place my faith in God and His holy Word. YOU can only chirp about how what God has said is "not concrete" as I think it is. You remind me of Satan. He too tries to weakly insinuate that God's word is not trustworthy.But Brian, your ***ertion as to who God is and what he would say or not say is not as concrete as you believe. We have instances, not a few, where God makes it clear that HE is to be listened to and that His ways is not our ways. I certainly wouldn't support a law today that said we should stone adulterers.
Yes pointhing out your false accusations, empty excuses and deceptive rhetoric is indeed a tactic I use all the time. Your dismissal of my identificaion of your falsehoods does not cons***ute a defense for your claims. Its just the usual avoidance. I expect nothing more. I am only trying to get YOU to demonstrate the vacuity of your entire apologetic - a task at which you excell, though I do not expect or require that you recognize how effective you are.Brian, this type of tactic is something you use all of the time. When you want an answer to a question---any answer we give will not suffice...you say things such as "irrelevant" etc. So, to all of your premises of the question, I saw them as irrelevant. I wanted to know what you would do if YOU for sure knew it was from God. Hence, I just gave you the circumstance of the Israelite who knew and also had been given a circumstance in which to do just that.
No. I would not ignore him because the entire process you just described would BY DEFINITION entail me NOT ignoring him. Would I kill my wife because this en***y then turned from all these signs and wonders and ordered me to to do so? Nope. Because I know from the Word of GodLet's say that God comes to you in person...parts the Red Sea, performs other miracles, etc. etc. as he did with Moses--would that be enough to convince you it was God speaking to you. Let's say it is not an thought, as God is speaking in a loud voice to you as He did with Abraham or Moses. Let's say that when He comes, He shows you the prints in His hands and feet and makes sure that you know he is the resurrected Lord. YOu never had a thought about it before and this from God is absolutely repulsive to you (as it would be for me as well)..then what---do you ignore Him?
Until you can explain how I can "know for sure" that God wants me to kill my wife without that knowledge existing as a thought, your claim of "spin" remains as empty and meaningless as ever.Your spin again...not thinking..."know for sure"---you keep wanting to change this to fit what you hope we asked rather than what we really asked.
They DID know.Why didn't the Israelites know?
-BH
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[QUOTE]That is the question I asked you---to put yourself in their shoes to see how you would respond in like circumstance.
You clearly do NOT understand what I said, or you have deliberately tried to misrepresent what I said. You said "If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD". That is not what I said. What I said was that if I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would indeed have an obligation to obey the law and kill my wife. But that is not the question being asked here.
Yes, another attempt to change the subject with your subjective view point of my religion. *sigh*Okay. I am sure your husband is glad to hear that you would not kill him if, for example, the LDS "prophet" told him to as Brigham Young told the Mormon Danites to kill those who p***ed through the Mountain Meadows territory that they regarded as their own.
Nope, I believe God's word is trustworthy--I am just trying to ascertain how you determine which part of God's word you believe. I also notice you cannot make a point without throwing in ample insults-which seems more unchristian than anything I am doing here.You remind me of Satan. He too tries to weakly insinuate that God's word is not trustworthy.
Okay---so here we are at the heart of the matter----even if you saw "an en***y" that performed miracles, showed you the prints in his hands, etc....if he went against what you know God to be, then, according to you, it surely must not be God. But then, why didn't the Israelites come to this same conclusion?No. I would not ignore him because the entire process you just described would BY DEFINITION entail me NOT ignoring him. Would I kill my wife because this en***y then turned from all these signs and wonders and ordered me to to do so? Nope. Because I know from the Word of God
So, the question becomes HOW did the Israelites know? Didn't they also have the command "thou shalt not kill"? Wouldn't that make them, like you, question "the en***y" as you call it that would then ask them to kill even after seeing the miracles and hearing God's voice to let's say, kill the Medianites (including children), or Abraham hearing the voice of God telling Him to sacrifice Abraham? I mean, wasn't it Abraham who went against child sacrifices because God had told him this was wrong? Certainly then, using your logic, Abraham should have known this "en***y" telling him to sacrifice Isaac was not God.They DID know.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114430]You changed the question. The original question did not put me in anyone's shoes.That is the question I asked you---to put yourself in their shoes to see how you would respond in like circumstance.
I am not changing the subject at all. I simply complimented you on not deciding to kill your husband as the Danites killed the non-Mormons at Mountain Meadows believing God told them to. Nothing subjective there, either. It would help your credibility if you would learn the meaning of your words BEFORE you use them in public.Yes, another attempt to change the subject with your subjective view point of my religion. *sigh*
If you believed God's word was trustworthy as do I, then you would not have to ask "which part" of it I believe. Your own behavior is what is insulting you, Julie. I am simply pointing it out. You can call me "unchristian" all you like if it makes you feel better, but all you are doing in the process is demonstrating your own duplicity.Nope, I believe God's word is trustworthy--I am just trying to ascertain how you determine which part of God's word you believe. I also notice you cannot make a point without throwing in ample insults-which seems more unchristian than anything I am doing here.
The one true God, the God of Truth does not contradict himself. Imaginary Gods like he Gods of the Mormons contradict themselves all the time. If someone showed up and did miracles and told me to do that which contradicts what God said in his word, I would instantly know its not God. That is the difference between you and me. I believe the word of God, you would believe signs and wonders instead of the word of God. But signs and wonders are easily faked by Satan and, in fact, are one of the things that God tells us will occur in the last days. As for the Israelites, they had the word of God too. And unlike you, they believed it.Okay---so here we are at the heart of the matter----even if you saw "an en***y" that performed miracles, showed you the prints in his hands, etc....if he went against what you know God to be, then, according to you, it surely must not be God. But then, why didn't the Israelites come to this same conclusion?
The Israelites were NOT not commanded to murder their wives. I AM commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. Jesus did not murder the church. He gave himself for it.So, the question becomes HOW did the Israelites know? Didn't they also have the command "thou shalt not kill"? Wouldn't that make them, like you, question "the en***y" as you call it that would then ask them to kill even after seeing the miracles and hearing God's voice to let's say, kill the Medianites (including children), or Abraham hearing the voice of God telling Him to sacrifice Abraham? I mean, wasn't it Abraham who went against child sacrifices because God had told him this was wrong? Certainly then, using your logic, Abraham should have known this "en***y" telling him to sacrifice Isaac was not God.
-BH
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[QUOTE]It did--it put you in the shoes of someone who knows for sure it is God---that was how the original question was posed. I merely tried to help you by seeing that there were circumstances in which a believer was faced with this same dilemma in the OT.
I ask which part because you state that God would never command us to kill our wives---as we have an example of that in the OT in regards to the adultering wife, I have to wonder if you do not believe that part of the Bible.If you believed God's word was trustworthy as do I, then you would not have to ask "which part" of it I believe. Your own behavior is what is insulting you, Julie. I am simply pointing it out. You can call me "unchristian" all you like if it makes you feel better, but all you are doing in the process is demonstrating your own duplicity.
I agree, but to me the non-contradiction comes in the form that when God speaks, you do--not that God tells the same thing to you as he does to the OT Israelites or you would believe that you needed to stone your wife if she committed adultery--which I am ***uming you don't believe.The one true God, the God of Truth does not contradict himself.
So, to you the Israelites had the word of God as well as God Himself. Is that the same God who told them "thou shalt not kill"? How do you think they dealt with this? How do you think Abraham dealt with God telling him to sacrifice Isaac on one hand and then telling Abraham that child sacrifices were wrong on the other hand. How do you think Abraham knew it was still God in this circumstance?I believe the word of God, you would believe signs and wonders instead of the word of God. But signs and wonders are easily faked by Satan and, in fact, are one of the things that God tells us will occur in the last days. As for the Israelites, they had the word of God too. And unlike you, they believed it.
You have completely ignored the fact that they were told to stone their wives if she was caught in adultery. (Do you realize that you keep changing the wording...first from "know for sure" to "think" and now from "kill" to "murder.") And you ignore the example of Abraham. Let's just use the example of Abraham--how did Abraham know it was for sure God who was telling him to sacrifice Isaac, since God had told him previously that child sacrifices were wrong?The Israelites were NOT not commanded to murder their wives. I AM commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. Jesus did not murder the church. He gave himself for it.
-BH
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[QUOTE=BigJulie;114438]It did put me in someone else's shoes? Okay ...supposed you support yoru claim for once. Here is the original question: ""If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?" Show me the words here that place me in anyone else's shoes, in particular the shoes YOU tried to put me in when you re-wrote the question.It did--it put you in the shoes of someone who knows for sure it is God---that was how the original question was posed. I merely tried to help you by seeing that there were circumstances in which a believer was faced with this same dilemma in the OT.
The original question stipulated nothing about adultry or any other crime. Nor, by the way, does the Old Testament tell us that the husband must kill his own wife for the crime of adultery. So your little rabbit trail, as usual, goes nowhere.I ask which part because you state that God would never command us to kill our wives---as we have an example of that in the OT in regards to the adultering wife, I have to wonder if you do not believe that part of the Bible.
Your ***umptions are, as usual, wrong. I see no injuntions from God anywhere in the Bible telling me to kill my wife or anyone else, for that matter.I agree, but to me the non-contradiction comes in the form that when God speaks, you do--not that God tells the same thing to you as he does to the OT Israelites or you would believe that you needed to stone your wife if she committed adultery--which I am ***uming you don't believe.
God told the Israelites to not murder. That is not the same thing as telling them to not kill. The original question posed in the OP makes no such distinction. It simply asks, as I have now repeatedly shown you, if I would kill my wife? In answer to the original question, as written (and which I guess I mistook for meaning what it said), the answer remains: "NO". Abraham is not being questioned here. I am. You are. You have made it clear that you would BOTH kill your (husband) AND you would NOT kill him. You seem confused. Meanwhile, I would know that any one claiming to be God who ordered me to kill my wife was clearly NOT God. I know that because I not God and I know his word. You cannot make that claim, because you apparently cannot tell the difference between God and Satan. You only fly by your emotions and the signs you seek.So, to you the Israelites had the word of God as well as God Himself. Is that the same God who told them "thou shalt not kill"? How do you think they dealt with this? How do you think Abraham dealt with God telling him to sacrifice Isaac on one hand and then telling Abraham that child sacrifices were wrong on the other hand. How do you think Abraham knew it was still God in this circumstance?
I did not ignore anything. The original question provides no stipulations or conditions that in any way even hint at adultery or any other capital crimes. In answering the question I was asked, I have no obligation to answer DIFFERENT questions about OTHER people killing THEIR wives under stipulations and conditions not given to me. Your pretending that I DO have such an obligation and your repeated attempts to CHANGE the question only demonstrates your inabliltiy to understand the problem you face here in the original question as written.You have completely ignored the fact that they were told to stone their wives if she was caught in adultery. (Do you realize that you keep changing the wording...first from "know for sure" to "think" and now from "kill" to "murder.") And you ignore the example of Abraham. Let's just use the example of Abraham--how did Abraham know it was for sure God who was telling him to sacrifice Isaac, since God had told him previously that child sacrifices were wrong?
-BH
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That fact that you won't address direct comparisons which show a flaw in your logic show that you want to keep this as narrowly defined as possible because to say "son" instead of "wife" causes you too much grief.I did not ignore anything. The original question provides no stipulations or conditions that in any way even hint at adultery or any other capital crimes. In answering the question I was asked, I have no obligation to answer DIFFERENT questions about OTHER people killing THEIR wives under stipulations and conditions not given to me. Your pretending that I DO have such an obligation and your repeated attempts to CHANGE the question only demonstrates your inabliltiy to understand the problem you face here in the original question as written.
-BH
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I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Really? That doesn't show very well, in some of the posts around here.We are under the law of love.![]()
There is nothing direct about your comparison. In fact its entirely different. I am not a Jew living under the law. Moreover, even if I was, law nowhere demands of a man that he kill his own wife, even for a capital crime. So in fact YOUR additional question is a total revision of the original. And even under that revision, the answer remains no - I would not kill my wife for adultery because the word of God nowhere says I should.
-BH
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Yes, and the fact that you are not under the law of Moses shows that God does not give you the same law as He gave to the Israelites. So, the question is posed, what if you knew for sure it was God and God told you to kill your wife (as they were under the law of Moses for committing adultery)? Two questions come about by this. 1) How would you know for sure it was God and 2) How would you respond.
For the first, the Israelites had Moses who lead them and they had many miracles come to p***---the parting of the Red Sea, just to name one. If you had experiences like that, would you believe it was God talking to you? Or to your leader?
Second, if you had experiences like that, would you follow God even if the direction was different from what you had previously?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I know that since the Law was abolished and Christ gave us the law of love that I am not to kill my wife or child. Period.
I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
So the final word from Billyray, is that if God told him something that he could not find support for in the Bible, he would disobey God!!! Billyray now claims that God is inferior to Billyray's undestanding of the Bible!!! It is now confirmed that Billyray is a Biblialitor, one who worships the Bible.
Marvin
Now you are changing the premise of the question, again! The premise of the question is that it would be God who asks you to do something. No other being is possible in this question. For you to make claims about devil or Satan is a major change to the premise of the question and violates the question. You are not answering the question that was asked but a question of your own invention and attempting to deceive us with your answer. Of course you are attempting to deceive us. You are answering a different question than the one posed but are claiming that you are answer the question that was asked. That is pure deception.I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
Marvin
(Every once in a while, I like to dip my toe into a topic I have not seen much change in over page after page of comments, just to watch the ripples)
"Lets say you totally believe it's God, and leave it at that...
now back to the question-
If you saw your God making a rock so big he could not lift it, would you do the same thing?....Yes or No?
another way to look at this issue?
There are for the most part, 2 types of CULTS in the world.
There are CULTS that are run by some type of organization.
And there are CULTS that are run by a single all-powerful guy, who controls people under him.
The 1st type we can look to the JWs to see what they are like.
The 2nd type we can look to groups like the one run by David Koresh.
Now the deal with CULTS that run by a David Koresh or a Charles Manson is that sooner or later its normal for them to start getting younger and younger girls into their bed. It's actually one of the outward signs of being in a CULT if you notice that the person who is the head of the religion, who represents God's revelation to you, starts to invite other women to his bed....
As far as I know, sooner or later it always comes down to....."bed, bed, bed"
They even do this openly as part of their religion.
If questioned about the correctness of sexually molesting a 11 or 12 year old girl the leader of a CULT normally says "It's God's Command!"
and the girls believe this
and their parents believe this
Everyone in the CULT can totally believe this too.
"It's God's Command...."
If a person truly believes 100% that God has commanded the sexually molesting of infants and small children, how does a normal person of faith start to convince them different?
What type of religious/moral foundation is there that you can stand on as you attempt to convince a parent that it is not God's command that they allow their own children to be so abused?
The sad part in this, is that the example Im talking about here is not just hypothetical....it has happened, heck just look at the sad case of Elizabeth Smart.
The little girl was raped by woman's husband,. while that wife ***umed this was "God's Command" and did not lift a finger to stop it.
How do you convince a person that it was not God's command, when by their own actions that have more than proved that they are 100% convinced it was god's command?
What do you say to a person that is completely convinced that they are listening to the one true God Almighty commanding them to turn over children to be sexually abused by the leader of their religion?
What are you going to say to them?
Are you going to stand there and tell them to "Pray about it"......NO!.....You are going to have to try a bit harder than that my friends...
But what do you base your counter argument on?
------------------------
I deal a lot with the outreach to the CULTS, mostly reaching out to members of, or people with family in the JWs.
The JWs dont believe in the same God I do.
The JWs dont believe in the same Jesus as I do.
The JWs dont believe in the same resurrection that I do, or in the same Kingdom of God that I do, nor in the idea as to who goes to heaven and who will not.
So clearly the JWs are a different religion.
yet, when Im called to go speak to a JW that is meeting with a family in my church and I'm seeking to help this JW find the true Jesus, I have to find some type of foundation where I can stand on.....
I use the bible.
The Bible is my foundation.
I base my message, on only what I can see the Bible teaching.
The person inside the CULT is not so limited in what they can use to support their views.
They can invent things
They can lie
They can write their own version of the bible, and change it to fit their views.
They can come up with a different bible, or have a single guy in charge of doctrine or organization that interprets God's Commands for them.
They can appeal to dreams as their final authority.
Or to personal opinions.
or to lucky dice.
There is no limit to things the person in the CULT can use to serve as their support for their teachings.
I only am allowed to use the bible.
The person in the CULT says "God told them to molest children"
My counter argument is centered only with the text of the bible.
My argument against their God, is based on what the bible teaches us about the nature of God.
In many ways this does put me at a disadvantage.
for they can say, "God told me so, I know it was the real God and I trust God 100%"
If the person is claiming a real personal revelation its hard for me to say "It never happened", because they are clearly convinced that '"something" did happen.
all I can say to counter that is that , "The God of the Bible would not say such a thing, nor could say such a thing"
It's the same logic as is found in our conclusions when we had a look at the question, If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big he cant lift it? The answer in both situations is that God can not do something that runs counter to His nature, as given to us in the Bible's revelation of Him.
That is the answer....
it would not really matter how sure they were that it was truly God that told them to do such evil things against children.
My argument against them has to be based out of the text, and has to center around the Bible's teachings about the nature of God...and that god can not act counter to this revelation that is already given.
I understand that the person in the CULT is absolutely convinced they they heard God speak to them.
I understand that they are 100% sure that it was God that told them to do these things, and to believe these things...
.
All I can do is show them that whatever they heard and no matter how convinced they are it was of god, , it could not be of God of the Bible, for it runs counter to the revelation we have of God in the Bible."
So Alan, in the real world how does this work out when talking to a Mormon or a Moonie or any of the many other religions that claim to be "Christian" ?
My answer to that question is that , While it would be nice to be able to sit down with a member of a CULT and show them via magic paperwork and magic videos, that they did not hear the true God speak to them, in most cases it's a little late for that effort.
Most of the time the person trapped in a CULT has put all of their trust in the testimony of the long-dead CULT's leader and his claim to have received a message from the One true god.
It's a little late for trying to convince anyone that their dead leader didnt receive a vision.....
All I can do is show by the scriptures that their dead leader's revelation runs counter to the bible's revelation, and that the bible teaches us that God can not ever say even one word that goes against what He has already revealed to us in the scriptures.
The Bible is not man's interpretation of God's revelations
The Bible IS GOD"S revelation to man.
The Bible is GOD's Word....
Thus there is ZERO CHANCE that any future revelations from God will go against the revelation we have already received from that same Lord...
So it doesn't matter how sure I am that God is speaking to me
If the revelation is in disagreement with God's revelation?, Then it's the wrong god!........
Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-01-2012 at 12:07 PM.
Then I am sure you would be happy to answer this hypothetical question. If God told you to reject him and worship satan would you do it?
Actually Marvin in case you forgot I already answered that question.
Isn't this the reason the Pharisees rejected Christ, even while He was performing extraordinary miracles?I realize that the devil can manufacture signs and miracles that can deceive and if something or someone lead me away from what was clearly taught in the NT then this was a false prophet. BTW there will be two prophets that will come and we are told exactly what to look for.
Jhn 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Not all of the Pharisees rejected Christ.
John 3
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
What is your evidence that God has ever asked this of any other person? I don't deal in ridiculous hypotheticals. Get real. Or get out.
Marvin