Watch How Easy This Is

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

That is not what Christ says...He said, one think he lacked.

I certainly don't read that as meaning that Christ believed that the man kept ALL of the commandments because nobody keeps ALL of the commandments. If this young man kept ALL of the commandments all of his life why didn't he call this young man good?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I certainly don't read that as meaning that Christ believed that the man kept ALL of the commandments because nobody keeps ALL of the commandments. If this young man kept ALL of the commandments all of his life why didn't he call this young man good?

Billyray, you are trying to add something to the scripture that isn't there. Christ did not ask the young man if he kept ALL of the commandments. When the young man asked him what was required for eternal life, Christ gave him a list of commandments. (All of which are easy to keep btw, for a believer). Then Christ didn't go on and tell him that all he needed to do was trust that Christ would save him (as you seem to think He should of) but rather went on to add one more thing for him to do?

So, why do you think Christ did not give him the answer of just having faith and trusting God would save him? Do you think Christ lied to him or kept the truth from him?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What do you think Christ didn't tell him to just believe He would save him and that would be enough?

Faith is what is required FOR salvation and I don't think this guy had faith in Christ let alone know who HE really was. Rather he was trying to justify his salvation by his own good efforts and even in this he fell short.

[BrianH]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;114351]

Oh brother...this is your next spin...you can't know something until you think something?? I guess to you then, it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Yeah, keep trying to change this to THINK....

*sigh*

Fallacy: Straw man. I did not say you can't know something UNTIL you think it; I asked you to explain how you can know something (specifically that God told you to kill your husband) WITHOUT thinking it. If you do not understand the difference between what I said and your misrepresentation of it, it will remain obvious that YOU are the one doing all the spin here, BJ.

One of the tactics of Mormon critics is to argue against what you want us to be saying rather than what we are actually saying. Another is to argue against what you have been told we believe rather than what we say we believe.

Until you can explain how you can even pretend to know that God wants you to kill your spouse WITHOUT that idea existing in your mind as a THOUGHT, your attempt to wiggle out of this will remain as obvious as it is ineffective.

Go ahead and explain how you can even pretend to know the voice of God if you are willing to DISOBEY his word under the pretense of knowing that he told you to kill your husband, Big J.

I can hardly wait ...though I think we both know that you will not answer.

-BH

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[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Christ did not ask the young man if he kept ALL of the commandments.

Christ said "19 You know the commandments. . ." I am sure he didn't just mean some commandments and not all commandments.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Fallacy: Straw man. I did not say you can't know something UNTIL you think it; I asked you to explain how you can know something (specifically that God told you to kill your husband) WITHOUT thinking it.

Yup, keep trying to spin it Brian.

If you do not understand the difference between what I said and your misrepresentation of it, it will remain obvious that YOU are the one doing all the spin here, BJ.

Another tactic you like to use, throw something back to the person who points out your lack of integrity in the discussion. Sir did not ask you what you would do if you THINK God spoke to you...he asked what you would do if you KNOW God spoke to you.

I can hardly wait ...though I think we both know that you will not answer.

-BH

.

Of course I won't because you are asking me to accept your false premise--your spin. How about start with the right premise (the true question that was asked) and we can go from there.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Christ said "19 You know the commandments. . ." I am sure he didn't just mean some commandments and not all commandments.

So, then you state that Christ's answer to this young man who wants to know what he needs to do to inherit eternal life is to give him the commandments.

So, as in Mark, Christ said:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

So, your argument is that Christ must have not been telling the truth because you know it is impossible to keep the commandments? Why didn't Christ just tell this young man that all he needed to inherit eternal life was to trust Christ would save him.

Once again, you do not answer my question---do you think that Christ decieved this young man by not giving him an honest answer?

[BrianH]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;114360]

Yup, keep trying to spin it Brian.

YOUR fallacious and deliberate misrepresentations do not cons***ue ME spinning anything.

Another tactic you like to use, throw something back to the person who points out your lack of integrity in the discussion. Sir did not ask you what you would do if you THINK God spoke to you...he asked what you would do if you KNOW God spoke to you.

You have yet to point out any such lack of integrity. Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to, insofar as it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know" that WITHOUT thinking it. But the entire premise is transparently lame because those of us who know God and his word, would instantly KNOW that the en***y telling us to kill our wives is obviously NOT God. YOU, on the other hand would not. Nor would you even have any basis to know that because you obviously do NOT know the word of God nor the Spirit of God.

In defending this absurd argument, you have proven that you actually WOULD kill your own husband if you THOUGHT God told you to, since you obviously cannot "know" anything without THINKING it. Don't you think you should just give up on this hopelessly indefensible position? Or are you going to go down with your burning ship?

Of course I won't because you are asking me to accept your false premise--your spin. How about start with the right premise (the true question that was asked) and we can go from there.

What is my premise, Julie? If you cannot even tell me WHAT my premise is, then you obviously have no basis for telling me its false and it remains obvious that you have been caught out in public once again trying to defend the indefensible.

Are you even reading this or are you just running on automatic here?

-BH

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[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again, you do not answer my question---do you think that Christ decieved this young man by not giving him an honest answer?

Not at all I think Christ made this guy realize that he didn't keep the commandments.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BrianH

YOUR fallacious and deliberate misrepresentations do not cons***ue ME spinning anything.

Trying to insist that to know something means the same as to think something is spin Brian.

You have yet to point out any such lack of integrity. Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to, insofar as it is IMPOSSIBLE to "know" that WITHOUT thinking it.

If you go to the original post of this thread: Sir states that a critic asked (so your spin number one is that this is Sir's question.)

The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):

"If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?"

So, it wasn't THINK at all--but even "know for sure."

So, Brian, do you want to address this issue with any kind of honesty or do you want us to keep trying to discuss what you spin the question to be?

What is my premise, Julie? If you cannot even tell me WHAT my premise is, then you obviously have no basis for telling me its false and it remains obvious that you have been caught out in public once again trying to defend the indefensible.

First false premise: The the question was originally Sirs which it is not.

Second false premise: that "know for sure" somehow means "think."

Your spin from this is that Mormons would kill their spouse if they THINK God told them to. *sigh*

Here is the original quote by the original poster:

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you knew for sure that God was speaking to you and God asked you to take out your wife into the backyard and sacrifice her would you do it?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all I think Christ made this guy realize that he didn't keep the commandments.

So, here is a young man that Christ loves and He answers him in such a way as to send him away without knowing the truth? That is your take? Christ is out to show this young man how foolish he is rather than to show him truth?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, here is a young man that Christ loves and He answers him in such a way as to send him away without knowing the truth? That is your take? Christ is out to show this young man how foolish he is rather than to show him truth?

My take is that this guy thought that entering heaven was based on his good works and that he thought that he actually had kept all of the commandments. It also appears from the exchange that he didn't know who Jesus really was.

[BrianH]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;114372]

Trying to insist that to know something means the same as to think something is spin Brian.

No its a fact ...at least until you can support your claim by actually EXPLAINING HOW you know God wants you to kill your husband without that idea being in your mind as a thought. Your failure to even try to meet that challenge is a functional admission that even you know YOU are the one doing all the spin here.

If you go to the original post of this thread: Sir states that a critic asked (so your spin number one is that this is Sir's question.)

The question posed by a critic (keeping names anonymous to avoid issues):

That is the question, "Sir" asked. HE is the one who posed it here and HE is the one who answered it in the affirmative. And here YOU are sharing and defending his claim that he WOULD kill his spouse if "God" told him to. The problem is, both "Sir" and YOU obviously do not know God, since if you did, you would instantly know that the one telling you to kill your spouse is NOT God.

So, it wasn't THINK at all--but even "know for sure."

Explain how you can even pretend to "know for sure" that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, Julie.

So, Brian, do you want to address this issue with any kind of honesty or do you want us to keep trying to discuss what you spin the question to be?

You just accused me of being dishonest. I challenge you to either support that accusation or apologize and retract it.

First false premise: The the question was originally Sirs which it is not.

First of all that is not my premise. Secondly, it most certainly was "Sir" who posed that question here in THIS thread and then ANSWERING it.

Second false premise: that "know for sure" somehow means "think."

Okay that is a premise, but you have not provided any reason to think it is false. Just REPEATING your claim when asked to support it is functional admission that you yourself know you cannot support that claim and you are obviously trying to obscure what will remain obvious until you DO support it. All you have to do now, Julie, is to explain how you can even pretend to "know" anything (much less that God wants you to kill your husband) WITHOUT that THOUGHT p***ing through your mind.

I am still waiting for you to do more than just chant your mantra and repeat the claim that I am asking you to explain.

Your spin from this is that Mormons would kill their spouse if they THINK God told them to. *sigh*

That is not "spin" it is a NECESSARY condition. Explain how you can KNOW that God wants you to kill your husband without thinking it, Julie.

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BrianH

No its a fact ...at least until you can support your claim by actually EXPLAINING HOW you know God wants you to kill your husband without that idea being in your mind as a thought. Your failure to even try to meet that challenge is a functional admission that even you know YOU are the one doing all the spin here.

The premise of the question is that you know for sure. It is you who keeps trying to now make the question different from what it is. It doesn't matter how you know---the premise is that you "know for sure." This is just your desparate attempt to look like you weren't trying to spin it when you were.

That is the question, "Sir" asked. HE is the one who posed it here and HE is the one who answered it in the affirmative. And here YOU are sharing and defending his claim that he WOULD kill his spouse if "God" told him to. The problem is, both "Sir" and YOU obviously do not know God, since if you did, you would instantly know that the one telling you to kill your spouse is NOT God.

Once again, that is not the premise of the question. The premise isn't whether or not it was God and the premise doesn't discuss how you know. The question is "if you know for sure" it is God. You keep trying to spin the question because you don't want to answer it as it stands. The only point I made is that your logic that God does not tell us to kill is not congruent with the Bible. The Israelites knew it was God and the Isrealites did what He said to do.

Explain how you can even pretend to "know for sure" that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, Julie.

That wasn't the question Brian. You just keep trying to spin it to what you think it should say.

You just accused me of being dishonest. I challenge you to either support that accusation or apologize and retract it.

You said the Sir asked the question, which in his original post, he said a critic asked the question--he just repeated it.

First of all that is not my premise. Secondly, it most certainly was "Sir" who posed that question here in THIS thread and then ANSWERING it.

This is what you said that Sir asked:

Sir DID ask if we would kill our wives if we THOUGHT God told us to

..as this is not what he asked, your question is dishonest.

Okay that is a premise, but you have not provided any reason to think it is false.

THe premise is false because if Sir meant to say "think" he would have said that rather than saying "know for sure."

I am still waiting for you to do more than just chant your mantra and repeat the claim that I am asking you to explain.

I am still waiting for you to answer the question that Sir reposted from a critic. Repeating your false premise over and over again in hopes of making a point does not answer the question.

That is not "spin" it is a NECESSARY condition. Explain how you can KNOW that God wants you to kill your husband without thinking it, Julie.

The is not the question. How did the Israelites KNOW it was God telling them to kill the Medianites? How did Abraham KNOW it was God who told him to sacrifice Isaac? The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.

Warren Jeffs "KNOWS" that God is talking to him and giving him revelation. Shouldn't he act on it?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Warren Jeffs "KNOWS" that God is talking to him and giving him revelation. Shouldn't he act on it?

oh brother. Once again, the question wasn't THINKS, but "know for sure"---so the premise is that it is God and the person knows it is God. Then do you listen?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

oh brother. Once again, the question wasn't THINKS, but "know for sure"---so the premise is that it is God and the person knows it is God. Then do you listen?

I am sure that Warren Jeffs KNOWS that it is God who is speaking to him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Then do you listen?

I know what God has told me and that is in his word. What else is required of me for salvation?

[BrianH]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;114384]

The premise of the question is that you know for sure. It is you who keeps trying to now make the question different from what it is. It doesn't matter how you know---the premise is that you "know for sure." This is just your desparate attempt to look like you weren't trying to spin it when you were.

The premise is itself bogus since, as SHOULD be obvious to anyone who names the name of Christ, that anyone who tells you to murder your spouse is obviously NOT God. And it most certainly DOES matter, since MANY people have murdered their spouses claiming that it was God who told them to do so. Were they right, Julie? DID God tell them to murder their spouses?

Once again, that is not the premise of the question. The premise isn't whether or not it was God and the premise doesn't discuss how you know. The question is "if you know for sure" it is God. You keep trying to spin the question because you don't want to answer it as it stands. The only point I made is that your logic that God does not tell us to kill is not congruent with the Bible. The Israelites knew it was God and the Isrealites did what He said to do.

If the premise is not concerned with whether or not it was God who gives this command ...why does it ask explicitly about God supposedly telling you to kill your spouse???? You are now at that inevitable point where you are not making any sense at all.

That wasn't the question Brian. You just keep trying to spin it to what you think it should say.

It is a NECESSARY condition of the question ...that is until you can meet the challenge of explaining how you can even pretend to "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without "thinking" it.

You said the Sir asked the question, which in his original post, he said a critic asked the question--he just repeated it.

But HE is the one repeating it here as THE question HE answered. The question is not really the problem since it is obviously just a specious canard. The problem you face is your ANSWER. YOU have admitted, by defending and agreeing with "Sir's" ANSWER that HE (and you) would kill your spouses. But if you knew God at all, you would have never fallen for this to begin with. Its a stoopid question. Its your ANSWER that is truly concerning.

This is what you said that Sir asked:


..as this is not what he asked, your question is dishonest.

Pointing out a NECESSARY condition of his question is not "dishonest". It is simple, obvious clear thinking. Until YOU can explain how one can know that God wants you to kill your husband WITHOUT thinking it, it will REMAIN a NECESSARY condition of his question. Your personal accusation of my supposed dishonesty is, as usual, unsupportable and just another desperate deflection on your part. You are only fooling yourself with these lame tactics.

THe premise is false because if Sir meant to say "think" he would have said that rather than saying "know for sure."

Until you can explain how you can know that God wants you to kill your husband without that idea p***ing through your mind as a thought, the obvious will REMAIN obvious: thinking is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing.

I am still waiting for you to answer the question that Sir reposted from a critic. Repeating your false premise over and over again in hopes of making a point does not answer the question.

Your claiming my premise is false is not an argument. Until you can explain how you can "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without " thinking' it, it will remain obvious that my premise is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing.

he is not the question. How did the Israelites KNOW it was God telling them to kill the Medianites? How did Abraham KNOW it was God who told him to sacrifice Isaac? The question isn't HOW someone knows, but rather what they do when they DO KNOW.

Wrong. The question is not about Abraham or the Israelites. Its about ME and YOU and "Sir". etc. We are the ones to whom the question was posed. YOU have made it disturbingly clear that YOU would kill your husband and "Sir" that he would kill his wife, thereby proving that you guys do not know God or his word which explicitly prohibits you from doing what you can only "think" that God wants you to do.

I would not fall for such an obvious fake God. Nor would any Christian who knows God and his word. The sad fact is ...you would fall for it and you have made that unmistakably clear. And THAT is the fundamental difference between Mormonism and Christianity. Christians believe God and his word. Mormons do not. Mormons believe whatever the LDS church tells them to believe IF it makes them feel good at the moment.

BIG difference.

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BrianH

The premise is itself bogus since, as SHOULD be obvious to anyone who names the name of Christ, that anyone who tells you to murder your spouse is obviously NOT God.

So, to you, Billyray's question in the first place started with a false premise because God would obviously not tell someone to kill their spouse. (Do you realize that you changed the word from "kill" to "murder"---another attempt at spin. We have examples in the Bible of God telling the Isrealites to kill the Medianites. We have God telling ABraham to sacrifice Isaac and we have God telling the Isrealites to stone the wife if she is an adulteress...well, please explain your logic here.

And it most certainly DOES matter, since MANY people have murdered their spouses claiming that it was God who told them to do so. Were they right, Julie? DID God tell them to murder their spouses?

You are attempting to change the question again--which is that you "know for sure that it is God"--not someone else and not that you "think" it is God.

If the premise is not concerned with whether or not it was God who gives this command ...why does it ask explicitly about God supposedly telling you to kill your spouse???? You are now at that inevitable point where you are not making any sense at all.

Just asking you to address the question as asked, not what you want it to be.

It is a NECESSARY condition of the question ...that is until you can meet the challenge of explaining how you can even pretend to "know" that God wants you to kill your husband without "thinking" it.

Think of it as an Israelite who just found out that their wife has committed adultery..would you stone her?

Pointing out a NECESSARY condition of his question is not "dishonest".

The point I made is that those in the Bible were asked to do things that seemed illogical all of the time...hence, your NECESSARY condition is just a distraction...all you need to know to answer the question is that it is for sure God and he has asked you to do something that seems absurd and illogical.

Until you can explain how you can know that God wants you to kill your husband without that idea p***ing through your mind as a thought, the obvious will REMAIN obvious: thinking is a NECESSARY condition of knowing such a thing.

As noted, for the sake of this argument, put yourself into the position of the Israelite who has just found out his wife has committed adultery. What do you do?

Wrong. The question is not about Abraham or the Israelites. Its about ME and YOU and "Sir". etc. We are the ones to whom the question was posed. YOU have made it disturbingly clear that YOU would kill your husband and "Sir" that he would kill his wife, thereby proving that you guys do not know God or his word which explicitly prohibits you from doing what you can only "think" that God wants you to do.

Please stop trying to spin this Brian and just answer the question as posed.

I would not fall for such an obvious fake God.

Was ABraham falling for a "fake God" or the Israelites?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know what God has told me and that is in his word. What else is required of me for salvation?

What has he told you Billyray? What do you lack?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What has he told you Billyray? What do you lack?

That Mormonism is false and that his teachings for us are in his word specifically the NT.

[BrianH]

Double post. Deleted.

.

[BrianH]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;114390]

So, to you, Billyray's question in the first place started with a false premise because God would obviously not tell someone to kill their spouse. (Do you realize that you changed the word from "kill" to "murder"---another attempt at spin. We have examples in the Bible of God telling the Isrealites to kill the Medianites. We have God telling ABraham to sacrifice Isaac and we have God telling the Isrealites to stone the wife if she is an adulteress...well, please explain your logic here.

First of all, since the original question failed to provide any conditions, we cannot presume any reason why "kill" and "murder" are not completely interchangeable. Yes God told the Israelites to exterminate the Medianites and Abraham to sacrifice Isaac and even the death penalty. Those are clearly defined situations and we know that it was indeed God in each case where, in each case, the specifics were clearly defined. In "Sir's" question, there are no such conditions or definitions. Under the open rubric of his question, it is impossible to distinguish between justified killing (such as self defense) and outright murder.

You are attempting to change the question again--which is that you "know for sure that it is God"--not someone else and not that you "think" it is God.

No, I am trying to get you to explain HOW one would "know" without "thinking". I can only "know" that God's supposed command to kill my wife is righteous and from God if it conforms to the word of God and the conditions of that killing conform to the parameters of His word.

Just asking you to address the question as asked, not what you want it to be.

The question AS asked makes no sense. It ***UMES that God is a murderer asking me to be the hit man. That is a false premise and requires clarification. Can you show me where the Bible tells me that God wants me to kill my wife? Or ...perhaps is that in the Book of Mormon, or the D&C...?

Think of it as an Israelite who just found out that their wife has committed adultery..would you stone her?

That is not the question that was asked. I was asked if I would kill my wife. I am not an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law. If I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would be required to stone her because that is clearly in the Word of God and I am presuming that you mean me to be an observant and pious Jew who believes in the Word of God in your revision of the question, but I am not sure that I would. In any event, your revised question is quite different from the original.

The point I made is that those in the Bible were asked to do things that seemed illogical all of the time...hence, your NECESSARY condition is just a distraction...all you need to know to answer the question is that it is for sure God and he has asked you to do something that seems absurd and illogical.

No, not because it seems absurd and illogical but because the Word of God clearly and explicitly tells me to LOVE my wife and sacrifice myself for her as Christ gave himself for the church. I don't see how killing my wife amounts to loving her. If you can tell me how I can love my wife by killing her, go ahead.

As noted, for the sake of this argument, put yourself into the position of the Israelite who has just found out his wife has committed adultery. What do you do?

Asked and answered.

Please stop trying to spin this Brian and just answer the question as posed.

The question as posed is fallacious. But YOU fell for it. You fell for it because you lack knowledge of God and his word and therefore you have no discernment and are easily fooled by Satan.

Was ABraham falling for a "fake God" or the Israelites?

Nope.

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BrianH

That is not the question that was asked. I was asked if I would kill my wife. I am not an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law. If I was an Israelite living under the dispensation of the law, I would be required to stone her because that is clearly in the Word of God and I am presuming that you mean me to be an observant and pious Jew who believes in the Word of God in your revision of the question, but I am not sure that I would. In any event, your revised question is quite different from the original.

Deep in the recesses of all of Brian's argument's, wading through all of the insults and putdowns, you finally find the answer to the original question. If Brian knew that God was speaking to him and he knew it was for sure God (as the Israelites did in the OT) then he would be "required to" kill his wife---BUT HE IS NOT SURE THAT HE WOULD.

I guess the Israelites took God a little more seriously than Brian does.