Watch How Easy This Is

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Where is there precedent in the Bible that God ever commanded someone to forsake Him and worship the Devil?

Are you having a hard time answering my simple question?????

Does God have to have a precedent in the BIBLE for you to do what HE asks of you?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you having a hard time answering my simple question?????

Does God have to have a precedent in the BIBLE for you to do what HE asks of you?

You should show me where God would command someone to go completely against His nature and His will.

Should be easy. You seem to be having a hard time.

I have shown why my question is legitimate and actually something that God has done. yet you and others seem to loathe the answer. So if you have such a hard time accepting an answer of something God HAS done, why would you accept an answer based on something God has NEVER done?

You're really desperately trying to trap me with paradoxical scenerio, and this in response to the original scenerio in which God has actually commanded sacrifice.

If you want to ask me your same desperate attempting to trap-me question, feel free.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

You should show me where God would command someone to go completely against His nature and His will.

So you are asking me for a precedent in order for you to comply with what God asked you to do? Isn't that the same thing that Christians are asking for when using the Bible as a standard?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you are asking me for a precedent in order for you to comply with what God asked you to do? Isn't that the same thing that Christians are asking for when using the Bible as a standard?

If you want to think of it that way.

I'm trying to figure out why you think your paradoxical entrapping question is supposed to be equal to and on par with my question.

It's just so obvious that you have your back against the wall and so are desperately left to this.

So if you must ask your silly question that you think will trap me and vindicate you somehow, go ahead and keep asking it.

I see through you. Not hard being so transparent.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

I'm trying to figure out why you think your paradoxical entrapping question is supposed to be equal to and on par with my question.

It was actually theway's question and he has asked this question before on CARM where I answered it then. There is no difference between my question and your question.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

You don't remember saying nobody would address this thread? You said it here:





LOL...so you believe that God's commanding to kill someone is murder. Great. Then your God is a murderer then, since He has done that very thing. Or did you not think your argument through completely?

Let's see....you went into a tangent about CSI and the FBI, so I am going to say no, you didn't.





So your interpretation of the Bible is that killing and murder are synonomous; equal.

Okay. I can see your dilemma.



Interesting. And here I thought your (all LDS critics) arguement is that God's commands trump civil laws. Now it doesn't.



Because the foundation of the question was it was the real God. No what ifs. But as has been pointed out to you and all the others who have intentionally twisted it around to claim the foundation of the question is different, you're left to fight against your own strawman argument.




See? Like that. Arguing something that was never even a possibility in the original question.

No wonder you guys are so flustered.

No, anyone being flustered here is that you LDS continue throwing this insane question out there. It has been answered many times over. MY god would not command me to kill anyone, there is the difference. And if you look back through the Bible, Abraham was the only man who EVER heard God telling him to sacrfice his son (to kill Issac). We must also remember that this all happened long before Moses and the 10 Commandments; there was NO LAWS for the Hebrews to follow at that time. We all know the outcome of that story. Now, if this same scenario were to take place today, tell that to a judge and see how far it gets you. That is all I am saying. We do NOT live under the same conditions as Biblical days. Your fanny would be hauled into jail, locked up til trial and then you would be questioned by a Prosecuting Attorney while 6-12 people on a jury of your peers heard all the evidence and yes, you'd be found either mentally insane and sentenced to life in an Nut House or given life in prison, or even the death sentence; depending on where you live. Can you see the problem this would cause in today's society?

I've shared that we here in Utah did have a scenario such as the one we've been discussing. That of two brothers who admitted they heard god tell them that they needed to sacrifice their sister-in-law and baby niece for they stood in the way of their other brother to marry a second wife (these men belonged to a polygamous sect here). The baby was only 18 months old and had her throat slit as well as the mother's. It is horrible to think about but is this what you want all of us here to believe that you too would do the same thing if you heard god speak to you and command you to sacrifice your precious wife, the mother of your children? And what if god didn't stay your hand as he did Abraham's? You would be arrested and you know it?

Sir, there is a great difference between the God you believe in as he couldn't even put a person back together after they were cremated, this was my mother's opinion as to why the LDS frown on cremation. I had to laugh knowing that my God created man out of the dust of the earth and with a word, the universe came into being. Your god however couldn't find his way out of a paper bag and he had to progress to being god, he wasn't always god and so he must continue to learn how to be one?? NONSENSE! The things you will believe!

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Sir

See? Even BrianH, who has been away on mandatory hiatus, has returned only to make the same mistake as his cohorts - to change the foundation of the question to a "What if it was God" instead of the true question that "It is God, no question".

So he too is left fighting against an argument of his own making.

And he is attempting to set a trap for me in claiming i will be duplitious in answering his baited question. But the answer is the same. Whatever very God asked me to do I would obey.

See? The only duplitiousness going on here is the critics that claim to love and obey God and taht God can do whatever he pleases but then claim that God can't do this or won't do that and.....

I answered your question, but you, as usual will not even try to answer mine. You ARE being duplicitous, Mr. "Sir". I am only pointing out YOUR behaviors. You would murder your wife and I would not. YOU could even be fooled into thinking that it was God who told you to do it. That is the difference between Mormons and Christians. Mormons can be made to believe pretty much ANYTHING they are told to believe. You lack any knowledge of the word of God which gives the lie to your premise - that God WOULD tell you to kill your wife in the first place.

Now lets watch you avoid my question again:

If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?

-BH

.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I answered your question, but you, as usual will not even try to answer mine. You ARE being duplicitous, Mr. "Sir". I am only pointing out YOUR behaviors. You would murder your wife and I would not. YOU could even be fooled into thinking that it was God who told you to do it. That is the difference between Mormons and Christians. Mormons can be made to believe pretty much ANYTHING they are told to believe. You lack any knowledge of the word of God which gives the lie to your premise - that God WOULD tell you to kill your wife in the first place.

Now lets watch you avoid my question again:

If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?

-BH

.

I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question. It's okay, though, since you can easily scroll back up.

But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.

And oddly enough you will still do what all your buddies here have done, and that is to change the premise of the question to "you THOUGHT it was God but really wasn't"....which is simply just your strawman to fight against.

So go for it!!

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

Sir, there is a great difference between the God you believe in as he couldn't even put a person back together after they were cremated,

neverendings LDS misrepresentation # 4876.

Ironic that the more you complain about being accused of misrepresenting LDS beliefs the more you misrepresent LDS beliefs.

LOL

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Sir

I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question. It's okay, though, since you can easily scroll back up.

But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.

And oddly enough you will still do what all your buddies here have done, and that is to change the premise of the question to "you THOUGHT it was God but really wasn't"....which is simply just your strawman to fight against.

So go for it!!

You did not answer the question ...as usual. And as usual, all you can do is play the victim because I DARED to challenge you. (Mod edit - NO BAITING)

You said you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to do so. So I will ask you AGAIN:

If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?


(mod edit - NO BAITING) You should be able to answer questions as well as asking them.

What's the matter?

-BH

.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by BrianH

You did not answer the question ...as usual. And as usual, all you can do is play the victim because I DARED to challenge you. - what you being a "god" and all that silly Mormon claptrap.

You said you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to do so. So I will ask you AGAIN:

If you thought that God told you to kill yourself, would you do it; or is your obedience only limited to killing other people?


You are the Mormon god here, Mr. "Sir" ...you should be able to answer questions as well as asking them.

What's the matter?

-BH

.

See? even after being told what he would do, BrianH lived down to our expectations and did the very thing. And he is left to taunt and bait and mock me, and then of course the obligatory "you are a victim" if you simply acknowledge that he is doing those things. Kind like you are a racist if you simply mention someone's skin color in a conversation. LDS-critic mentality. It's all they have left.

Originally Posted by Sir

But I know you will still live down to my expectations, still not comprehend the answer, and still claim that you were avoided.

Apparently when someone says they would do whatever God asked him to do, BrianH still does not quite understand what that means. Maybe someone else reading this could help him out.

[BigJulie]

Oh, how the critic loves to talk in hypotheticals. Let's look at some real scenarios. If God told you to kill your child would you do it even though everything you had learned to this point about God would say that such a thing is wrong? Abraham chose to listen to God first and foremost and not his own understanding when it came to sacrificing Isaac.

Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.

So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, how the critic loves to talk in hypotheticals. Let's look at some real scenarios. If God told you to kill your child would you do it even though everything you had learned to this point about God would say that such a thing is wrong? Abraham chose to listen to God first and foremost and not his own understanding when it came to sacrificing Isaac.

Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.

So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.

Funny, isn't it? I answered that I would do ANYTHING God asked me to do. And yet BrianH calls that avoiding a question that asks if I would do something God asked me to do.

I guess I can understand how someone might get lost in that question answer exchange.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

I see that in your zeal to attack me personally, you did not comprehend that I actually DID answer your silly question.

How about answering my question or Brian's question instead of avoiding it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, here are two real examples where two men listened to God and did what seemed crazy.

If I follow what is taught in the NT what else is required of me FOR salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Next, what about killing yourself? If the lives of others requires you to sacrifice yourself, do you do it? Jonah did when he knew that the lives of the others on the boat were at risk and he did not leave the boat at once. He didn't say to God, I will do what you want so calm the water and I will get there eventually. Instead, he let the men on the boat know he was the problem and in a sense, gave himself over for dead. Unless you think that Jonah somehow knew that not only would he survive the ocean, but also being in the belly of a fish. And of course, Jonah was a type of Christ who also gave his life (when he had the choice not to) for others.

Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How about answering my question or Brian's question instead of avoiding it.

See? I guess the comprehension in the LDS-critic dept is on low these days. Now they reply to your answers with chatges that you avoid answering!

Maybe billy is just upset that I won't bite his stinkbait.

Originally Posted by Sir

Funny, isn't it? I answered that I would do ANYTHING God asked me to do.

I guess I can understand how someone might get lost in that question answer exchange.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

See? I guess the comprehension in the LDS-critic dept is on low these days. Now they reply to your answers with chatges that you avoid answering!

We both asked simple questions that related to your question. It seem like you do not want to answer it. That is fine.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If I follow what is taught in the NT what else is required of me FOR salvation?

This brings to mind two things we learn from the Bible. One, that the scriptures are not enough to give eternal life. God doesn't say, follow the Bible, He states, "follow me." Two, that the only source of salvation is God.

Here are two examples:

The first example of this is the rich young ruler. He "followed what was taught" and thought that this would save him when ultimately, what saves (as has been discussed many times) is Christ Himself. Hence, was it good enough to follow the teachings that had already learned of Christ for this rich young man? NO, ultimately, what is required is to follow Christ when He asks YOU to do something. In other words, if he asks you, Billyray, to do something that you cannot find written in black and white in the scriptures, it does not excuse you.

Second example is the Pharisees whom Christ directly answers the question you ask. The Pharisees believed they were following what they understood God to be from the Torah. But this is what Christ said to them:

"Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

He directly notes that in the scriptures the pharisees "THINK" they had eternal life, but Christ corrects them. It is not the scriptures that give eternal life, but Christ Himself. So, what does He say? He says that the scriptures are what testify of Christ and they would NOT come to Christ and have eternal life. So, it is not the scriptures that provide eternal life. Hence, if you think the scriptures will save you, you are wrong. It is Christ and as such, the only thing the scriptures are meant to accomplish is to turn to you what really saves---Christ.

In other words, if you think you can follow the scriptures and ignore Christ, you are sadly mistaken.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where did God command Jonah to take his own life?

When did God the Father command Jesus Christ to give up His life? Could Christ have saved Himself?

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Sir

See? even after being told what he would do, BrianH lived down to our expectations and did the very thing. And he is left to taunt and bait and mock me, and then of course the obligatory "you are a victim" if you simply acknowledge that he is doing those things. Kind like you are a racist if you simply mention someone's skin color in a conversation. LDS-critic mentality. It's all they have left.

Precisely what has you so taunted and offended by little ole' me simply asking you the same kind of question you asked me? YOU are the one who proudly proclaimed that you would kill your own wife. If pointing out that FACT is so offensive to you, perhaps YOU should not have said it to begin with.

This is the same kind of question you posted in the OP: Would you kill yourself if you thought God told you to? You have already made it clear that you would kill your own wife. Is your obedience only limited to killing your wife as YOU admitted or would it extend to killing yourself?

Apparently when someone says they would do whatever God asked him to do, BrianH still does not quite understand what that means. Maybe someone else reading this could help him out.

I understand that you would kill your wife if you thought God told you to. You said so yourself. Yet you complain to the mod when I point out what YOU said. I also understand that you have an obvious double standard since you refuse to recognize the FACT that the word of God makes it clear that God would never do such a thing, yet you would believe it anyway.

-BH

.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

This brings to mind two things we learn from the Bible. One, that the scriptures are not enough to give eternal life. God doesn't say, follow the Bible, He states, "follow me." Two, that the only source of salvation is God.

Here are two examples:

The first example of this is the rich young ruler. He "followed what was taught" and thought that this would save him when ultimately, what saves (as has been discussed many times) is Christ Himself. Hence, was it good enough to follow the teachings that had already learned of Christ for this rich young man? NO, ultimately, what is required is to follow Christ when He asks YOU to do something. In other words, if he asks you, Billyray, to do something that you cannot find written in black and white in the scriptures, it does not excuse you.

Second example is the Pharisees whom Christ directly answers the question you ask. The Pharisees believed they were following what they understood God to be from the Torah. But this is what Christ said to them:

"Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

He directly notes that in the scriptures the pharisees "THINK" they had eternal life, but Christ corrects them. It is not the scriptures that give eternal life, but Christ Himself. So, what does He say? He says that the scriptures are what testify of Christ and they would NOT come to Christ and have eternal life. So, it is not the scriptures that provide eternal life. Hence, if you think the scriptures will save you, you are wrong. It is Christ and as such, the only thing the scriptures are meant to accomplish is to turn to you what really saves---Christ.

In other words, if you think you can follow the scriptures and ignore Christ, you are sadly mistaken.

BJ: First, who's word is it, I mean who's word is found in the Bible? If it wasn't for the Bible you wouldn't have been able to even quote these parables or even say what Christ said, when He said, "come follow me". Julie, it is ONLY through Christ that one can have ETERNAL life and IT IS those VERY Scriptures that tell us so. 1 John 5:13, do go and read it. It is the one verse that I cling to and lean on everyday.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When did God the Father command Jesus Christ to give up His life? Could Christ have saved Himself?

BJ: I do think you know the answer to your question. Christ could have come down off that cross at any time, NO one took his life, HE gave it up freely for you and me!! Had he come down off that cross, then we would have no hope, nothing! When our lives ended, all we would have to look forward to was Hell.....no resurrection, no Savior, nothing but outer darkness and torment. Course that is what we all deserve but our precious Savior loved us ENOUGH to come to earth, taking on a mortal body, experienced all the things men did, being tempted in every way and yet.....he took our place on that bloody cross and hung there and died. Think about it for a moment, what Christ suffered for us all. I give him praise and honor for he is worthy of it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BrianH

you refuse to recognize the FACT that the word of God makes it clear that God would never do such a thing, yet you would believe it anyway.

Where is it made clear that God would never ask that of someone? He did, in fact, ask that of someone.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

neverendings LDS misrepresentation # 4876.

Ironic that the more you complain about being accused of misrepresenting LDS beliefs the more you misrepresent LDS beliefs.

LOL

MAN.....you just don't read very well. I was talking about my mother's idea that God couldn't put someone back together once they had been cremated. I had always been told that the LDS didn't think highly of people being cremated. So my ideas of god came from my mother and I found her reasoning a might silly.

From and Aug. 1991 Ensign article an ***ociate professor of Church History and Doctrine asked the question about cremation.....
"Where do Latter-day Saints fit into this picture? We reaffirm the perspective that the body is good and, as a creation of God, is to be respected. But as the Church has moved into nations other than the United States, there has been recognition that cultural practices differ. Generally, Latter-day Saints in the Western world have felt that nothing should be done which is destructive to the body. That should be left to nature. Church leaders have counseled that only in unusual circumstances or where required by law should cremation take place.
Ultimately, after consultation with the Lord and with priesthood leaders, the family must decide what to do. If the person has been endowed, some special instructions are available for the family from local priesthood leaders. Even if a body is cremated, a funeral service may be held if the ashes are buried or deposited in a mausoleum.
Where there is no overriding reason to cremate, burial is still the preferred method of handling our dead. In the end, however, we should remember that the resurrection will take place by the power of God, who created the heavens and the earth".

You will have to excuse my mother, bless her soul since she's been gone 10 years now and I think she was a might confused at times.