Precisely Trinity. Now, let us see you come out as a Catholic endorsing homosexual acts as a viable Catholic lifestyle.
Apparently, asdf seems to be getting different vib from you than from me in regards to homosexuality as a healthy lifestyle to be approved by the Christian community. However, I know when I was becoming Catholic that yourself along with many other Catholic posters here have a distain for "Cafeteria Catholicism." Picking and choosing what is politically expediant rather than relying on the authority of Scipture and Tradition. Right now, although you claim to be Catholic and speak it truthfully, I question your priorities. It is alright by me that you may view global warming as the biggest moral problem in our day and age, but I would not be rubbing elbows with the homosexual community or those that are supportive of its lifestyle to be thrust into Church politics.
Last edited by Columcille; 04-14-2009 at 12:42 PM.
I think we should look at this condition without prejudice because this condition has been always present inside our own Church (and any other churches, even with the Mormons) from all centuries.
"Benedict of Nursia, who died in 547, first gained fame as a hermit, then founded a number of monasteries at Monte Cassino and its environs. He was the man who provided the written bylaws for monks, setting the behavioral standards for monastic living. The Rules of Benedict gave him a place in history. (1.) These rules made it clear that sexual behavior, and more specifically homosexual behavior, was a large problem in monastic life. Benedict addressed the problem head-on. A separate bed was mandated for each monk. Further, all monks were required to sleep together in one room, fully clothed and girdled, without weapons; and a light must be kept burning all night. The beds of the older members must be interspersed with those of the younger. For those monks who did experience homosexual urges, such rules must have felt something like Chinese water torture."
(1.) The Holy Rule of St. Benedict, trans. Boniface Verbeyen (Atcheson, KS: St. Benedict’s Abbey, 1949), pp. 480–543.
Last edited by Trinity; 04-14-2009 at 03:34 PM.
Trinity, you are stating what is obvious to me. However, the goals and sentiment of Asdf are not the same as you and me on this subject... at least in regards to what Catholicism teaches on the subject. This you have to get clear in your mind.
How the Monks are to sleep
All the monks shall sleep in separate beds. All shall receive bedding, allotted by the abbot, appropriate to their environment. If possible they should all sleep in one room. However, if there are too many for this, they will be grouped in tens or twenties, a senior in charge of each group. Let a candle burn throughout the night. They will sleep in their robes, belted but with no knives, thus preventing injury inslumber. The monks then will always be prepared to rise at the signal and hurry to the Divine Office. But they must make haste with gravity and modesty. the younger brothers should not be next to each other. Rather their beds should be interspersed with those of their elders. When they arise for the Divine Office, they ought to encourage each other, for the sleepy make many excuses.
(The Rule of Saint Benedict. Trans. Anthony C. Meisel and M.L. del Mastro. New York: Doubleday. 1975. p70).
I do not have a copy of the book you mention since it was written in 1949. However, I find it very strange that a translation of the text is embedded in an introduction rather than seperate from the introduction. To me this ruins the flavor of the rule rather than complimenting it. Besides, the introduction that I read in front of mine shows that Benedict was not well liked and an attempted poisoning was thwarted. Regardless of one's own feelings, the rule as laid out by him was for the purpose of holiness. The requirements of the monastic life are never easy regardless if an individual has homosexual attractions or otherwise. The following chapter (23) discusses "excommunication for faults." Very appropriate. Asdf would very much like to advocate homosexuality, the Church does not. therefore, you should be against his position.
Then stop playing puss-yfoot with asdf.
OED definition of puss-yfoot:
1. intr. To tread softly or lightly to avoid being noticed; to proceed warily; to conceal one's opinions or plans; to behave evasively or timidly.
Last edited by Columcille; 04-14-2009 at 07:04 PM. Reason: insert "-" because it is not a swearword.
Vatican bishop defends abortion for nine-year-old
Monday March 16 2009
A SENIOR Archbishop has insisted that Brazilian doctors do not deserve excommunication for aborting the twin foetuses of a nine-year-old child who was allegedly raped by her stepfather because the doctors were saving her life.
The statement by Archbishop Rino Fisichella in the Vatican newspaper yesterday was highly unusual because church law mandates automatic excommunication for abortion.
Archbishop Fisichella, who heads the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life, also upheld the Church's ban on abortion and any implications of his criticism of excommunicating the doctors and the girl's mother weren't clear.
Archbishop Fisichella argued for a sense of "mercy" in such cases and respect for the Catholic doctors' wrenching decision, and strongly criticised fellow churchmen who singled out the doctors and mother for public condemnation.
"Before thinking about excommunication, it was necessary and urgent to save her innocent life and bring her back to a level of humanity of which we men of the church should be expert and masters in proclaiming," he wrote.
The doctors, he noted, had said the child's life was in danger if the pregnancy continued.
The stepfather, 23, confessed to the rape and was arrested. He was not excommunicated and received no blame. The child was sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather, since she was six.
Last edited by Trinity; 04-14-2009 at 07:58 PM.
Trinity, apparently you don't seem to understand the struggle here. The Church is merciful, but its position unmovable. Asdf is not your buddy in doctrinal arms. What he advocates is that Church changes its doctrinal stance. The following is his words, mark them well, for it seems your playing doesn't understand the undermining of the truth of the Christian faith, most especially for us the truth of the Catholic faith:
It is my opinion that one's propensity/orientation/iden***y toward one gender over another should not be considered a sin.
Furthermore, I believe that committed, monogamous, [in principle] lifelong same-sex relationships can be consistent with Christian morality.
In short, no - I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.
Last edited by Trinity; 04-14-2009 at 08:38 PM.
It has everything to do with Trinity's manner of expressing herself/himself (sorry, I don't think I know your which pronoun to use, Trin ) without hostility, without antagonism to modern psychological, medical, and scientific advances.
Godís seal is truth.
Trinity, either tell asdf that his position that homosexuality is in God's eyes sinful or stay silent. Any other action will demonstrate clearly that you are a Cafeteria Catholic. As Dr. Martin has stated in many instances the proverb... better a fool stay silent then to speak and dispell all doubt.
It is a cop-out to say "Like Catholics we obey to the teaching of the Church, but this is not an obligation for the non-catholics." God's moral instruction when it is fully revealed in the Catholic faith means regardless of the positions held by others that it is completely true. Of course it is not an obligation to them, they can continue in sin all they want. Let your yes be yes and your no no. State in clear terms whether homosexuality is sinful or is not sinful.
“Historian John Boswell argued that homoerotic relationships existed, and even were ceremonialized, for long periods in Christian monasticism. And when the eleventh century theologian Peter Damien coined the term “sodomy,” he was referring especially to his fellow clerics, among whom in his view this sin was prevalent and virtually intractable.
Only in the latter half of the twelfth century did the Christian church systematically begin to persecute sodomites. Whether carried out under the auspices of the Crusades or (more frequently) those of the Inquisition, persecution was a collaboration of religious and secular authorities. The Papal Inquisition enlisted the secular arm to suspend the ordinary rights of citizens and to carry out its most terrible punishments, such as execution by burning. The Spanish Inquisition continued the persecution of sodomites as heretics, and extended this persecution to sodomy among indigenous peoples in the New World. The thirteenth century Crusade against the Cathars involved the accusation, if not the reality, of homoeroticism. The Cathars were a sect dating back to the Manichaean Gnostics, which had survived in Eastern Christianity, especially Bulgaria, and then found its way into Italy and Southern France. Because they rejected the body and the natural world, the Cathars encouraged nonprocreative sex among ordinary believers, and among the elite, celibacy. Hence the term “bugger” (a vulgarized form of Boulger) came to refer at once to heresy and sodomy. This view of sodomites is well illustrated in the case of the Order of the Knights Templar. In 1307 the Inquisition accused the Knights of sodomy, heresy, and witchcraft, consequently inflicting upon them torture and execution by burning.“ [p.10-11]
Homosexuality and Religion: An Encyclopedia
by Jeffrey S. Siker (Editor)
2007, 272 pages.
Dr. Jeffrey S. Siker
Ph.D. Princeton Theological Seminary (New Testament Studies, 1989)
M.Div. Yale University Divinity School (1981)
M.A. Indiana University (Religious Studies, 1978)
B.A. Indiana University (double major: Music & Religious Studies, 1976)
Last edited by Trinity; 04-14-2009 at 09:34 PM.
Again Trinity, you are branding me as without compassion. I am not condoning a witchhunt against homosexuals. You HAVE to state that homosexuality is sinful or not. Not doing so is only encouraging asdf that holding such position is alright by God. Giving this type of message clearly places you at fault in Ezekiel 33. 8 "If I say to the wicked, "O wicked ones, you shall surely die," and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from their ways, the wicked shall die in their iniquity, but their blood I will require at your hand."
If you do not correct asdf on this issue, and he maintains such a position, you will be an accomplice to it. If you do correct him, and he still maintains such a position, you will not be an accomplice to his sinfulness.
Asdf has stated the following:
Now, tell me honestly Trinity, were the prophet's in the O.T. liked by those whose position disagreed with God?It has everything to do with Trinity's manner of expressing herself/himself ... without hostility, without antagonism to modern psychological, medical, and scientific advances.
Was the Apostles, who were martyred and persecuted, loved by those whose lifestyle were in opposition to the Gospel message?
I am not running a popularity contest like you are. I am here to tell you that you need to clean up your positional stance to where God's is.
I am at times hostile to "modern" advances, because in most cases such advances are politicized. A "consensus" that homosexuality is not sinful by psychologists is not viable when the Church has taught its sinfulness through the Scriptures and Tradition. "Modern" medicine has been a common catchphrase, but in terms of identifying a homosexual gene has ended up at a dead end with a politicized consensus. Scientific advances are great, new technologies for examining things is all well and good, for the purpose of science is to observe, not to religiously or philosophically advance a hypothesis into a fact.
Trinity, on a personal level, Paul tells us not to reward evil with evil but evil with good.
As far as secular governance is concerned, there are bad policies and bad people, I am looking at the doctrinal and moral position that is truthful. My concern is living in the present state. Professing Christians stating that homosexuality is good in God's eyes is what we are discussing.