The Bible Does Not Prohibit ****sexuality

[alanmolstad]

I believe it is the bible that condemns the gays...
as a christian i cant go against what the bible teaches correct?

So as the bible teaches that the gays dont enter into the kingdom should i ignore that?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe it is the bible that condemns the gays...
as a christian i cant go against what the bible teaches correct?

Of course you can. And do, all the time. Unless you, say, enforce short hair on men, long hair & head coverings on women, and endorse slavery. (To say nothing of the Old Testament laws about food, sabbath, shaving, agriculture, hygiene, etc.)

So as the bible teaches that the gays dont enter into the kingdom should i ignore that?

The bible doesn't "say" anything of the sort. One interpretation of the bible, based on one translation of a couple Greek words into English, suggests that.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Of course you can. And do, all the time. Unless you, say, enforce short hair on men, long hair & head coverings on women, and endorse slavery. (To say nothing of the Old Testament laws about food, sabbath, shaving, agriculture, hygiene, etc.)


t.

I believe men should have hair that reflects the best "male-ness" that is consistent with the bible's command.

I believe the women's 'head covering" talked about in the New test is actually just talking about "long hair" as as such I believe that the hair length of a girl should also reflect a message consistent with the Bible's command.

The Bible does not endorse slavery, and in fact it commands that if a slave can find his freedom he should take it....
I agree with this command of the Bible.


as for the Old test?...we are under the New Covenant, as as such we have to follow the laws laid out for us to follow that appear in the Bible for New test believers.

As such we see clearly that being "gay" itself is called a perversion and the people who live in that type of sinful life do not enter into the kingdom....

[asdf]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe men should have hair that reflects the best "male-ness" that is consistent with the bible's command.

I believe the women's 'head covering" talked about in the New test is actually just talking about "long hair" as as such I believe that the hair length of a girl should also reflect a message consistent with the Bible's command.

Indeed—those are interpretations and contextualizations you've made to make sense of biblical proscriptions that, if taken at face value, do not correspond with reality and morality as you know it.

The Bible does not endorse slavery, and in fact it commands that if a slave can find his freedom he should take it....
I agree with this command of the Bible.

Not once does any author in the biblical texts condemn the slave trade or say that owning another person is an immoral thing that a Christian ought not do. And in several places slavery is given explicit or tacit support as a direct command from God. Am I mistaken?

as for the Old test?...we are under the New Covenant, as as such we have to follow the laws laid out for us to follow that appear in the Bible for New test believers.

Indeed, most Christians do consider the Mosaic laws to have been abrogated by Christ, except when it's convenient for their culture wars.

As such we see clearly that being "gay" itself is called a perversion and the people who live in that type of sinful life do not enter into the kingdom....

"Being 'gay' itself" — [citation needed]
"is called a perversion" — [citation needed]

I'm sorry, but we do not "see clearly" any such thing. You're reading quite a bit of your modern biases into your selective reading and selective interpretation of a few select scriptures.

And, once again, if you bothered to get to know some gay people, it might help illuminate those biases to help you see them more clearly. Reality tends to have that effect on our treasured abstract interpretations—such as when the Christian doctrine of fixed-earth geocentrism was overthrown by the observable reality of heliocentrism.

"But it does move."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Indeed—those are interpretations and contextualizations you've made to make sense of biblical proscriptions that, if taken at face value, do not correspond with reality and morality as you know it.

My previous answer was addressed to the idea that because I follow the New test Biblical condemnation of the Gays that I also must follow the teachings on hair length....

as I point out in my post, I do.

Thus my teachings in support of the Bible on the subject of the Gays is totally consistent with all the other New Test Bible teachings....


Morality as I know it must be based on the text of the Bible alone, or it is of no value to us...



in other words:
The Bible says it-
I believe it -
That settles it!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Not once does any author in the biblical texts condemn the slave trade ....

Actually the whole letter by Paul addressed to Philemon is a clear attempt by Paul to get a slave set free and returned to him.....

Paul puts the screws to Philemon in the letter, and the context is clearly that Paul wants the slave set free.....




The other thing I think I should point out is that we dare not ***ume that just because something is not addressed in the bible with the very same wording we are seeking that this somehow means the Bible has nothing to teach on a topic.
An example would be getting drunk and driving a car the wrong way on the road.
Does any Bible author clearly come out and condemn driving drunk on the wrong side of the road?.....no.

But we cant then ***ume that the Bible must agree with the practice of driving a car drunk just because we cant find it as clearly talked about as some person requests.

The context of the New Test is clearly that owning a slave is harmful and that if a slave gets a chance to be free he should take it, and that to be a good Christian a slave owner should allow his slaves to go free.

This is the teachings of the Bible, and it is true....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

Indeed, most Christians do consider the Mosaic laws to have been abrogated by Christ

What we believe is this >
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."


All of the Law of the Jews was totally fulfilled in the life and death of Christ.
When we become Christians, we are buried with Christ in the water of our Baptism.

Thus to the law we are then , (and for all time after) dead ....

We are dead in the eyes of the law.
And as we all know, the Law has no power over the dead...the law is fulfilled and we are no longer under it's power.

We rise up out of the waters of the new Covenant, and as such we now fall under the control and power of the New test commandments.

The important teachings for the church are found now in the New Test and are therefore part of our New Covenant...

The commandment that Gays do not enter into the Lord's Kingdom are found in the New test and are very much a part of the New Covenant that we now live under in Christ.

[Saxon]

Is the Old Testament of any value to the Christian that is in Christ?

[alanmolstad]

It's kinda like a 3rd grade teacher. ..important at one time in our history but once you are in 4th grade you have another teacher to listen to now that is better

[alanmolstad]

So as Walter martin said We must read the Old Test in the light of the New

[Saxon]

Does the Old Testament teach anything different than the New Testament when you take into consideration the context of the whole Bible?

[alanmolstad]

the Old Testament teaches the Old Covenant, and as we read in the New Test if there was nothing wrong with the Old Covenant there would be no need for the New.

The New Wine can not fit in the Old Wine skins....

[Saxon]

What scripture did Paul preach from?

[alanmolstad]

John 6:68
"Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

We have to remember that Peter and Paul and the rest of the Disciples all were Jews and so they already had plenty of teachers of the Law.
They did not lack of instruction.

But they did not have life.

Life is found in the words of Christ.

This is why Paul tells us that he preached nothing except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
This is why the teachings of the Disciples were so radically different than the teachings of the Jews at the time.
For we are not just dealing with a new reason the Jews should kill a goat, or a new list of foods that cant be eaten, or a new way to wash our hands etc, etc,etc,
Had that been true then Jesus and the Disciples like Paul would have been accepted by the Jewish leaders as being "One of them"

But people came to Jesus to hear him because Jesus taught different than the Jewish teachers, for Jesus taught as one who had "authority".
This is why there is a Christian faith.

For Christians base their religion on the words of Christ, for they (The words of Christ) are held as being superior to all other teachings and words.
This also was the reason for 1 Corinthians 1:23
"but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,"

So if you want to actually know what the Disciples preached?...it was this. > "Christ crucified"

This also is why today I tell people that if you want to understand what we base the Christian religion on?, just think about all that could be removed from the world and yet still have enough to be a true Christian?....

For example: could you remove all the church buildings and still be Christian?....yes
Could you remove all the books found in the Old Testament and still be a Christian?....yes

So what is the one thing in this world that has to be true or the whole of the christian faith falls?.....The Resurrection of Christ from the dead.

So except for the Resurrection of Christ, all the rest of the things found in our religion could be taken away or proved to be false and it would not matter?.....yes


As long as the Resurrection of Christ is true, it and it alone is the only reason we are Christians....

[Saxon]

Not only did you not come close to answering my question, you seem to be willing to toss out the Old Testament. Where do you find that the Old Testament is no longer valid for the Christian?

The question was, “What scripture did Paul preach from?” I was not asking about who Paul was preaching about.

Also, what scriptures were the people of Berea searching? (See Ac 17:11)

In John 5:39, what scriptures did Jesus want searched that testified of him?

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[alanmolstad]

I answered my way..you answer your own

[alanmolstad]

So what Im saying, (and have said above)is that there is a very good reason why we call our selves "Christians" and not "Old Testament Jews"

The Old Test taught the Jews the concept of the Old Covenant.
My thoughts on the Old Covenant are best summed up at Hebrews 8:7

That there is but one thing that makes us Christians, and its as I have talked about above.
This is why I'm a Christian.



But Im not interested in the unending debate between the Septuagint vs the Masoretic texts, nor have any time to be part of a"King James Only" , "Book of Enoch" .etc debates.

[Saxon]

So what Im saying, (and have said above)is that there is a very good reason why we call our selves "Christians" and not "Old Testament Jews"

The Old Test taught the Jews the concept of the Old Covenant.
My thoughts on the Old Covenant are best summed up at Hebrews 8:7

That there is but one thing that makes us Christians, and its as I have talked about above.
This is why I'm a Christian.

You are still avoiding the questions that I have asked you. You seem to think that the Old Testament is for those of direct Hebrew ancestry. This is not true. The whole Bible is for all and any who read it and trust in Christ.

Let us try again:

What scripture did Paul preach from?

Also, what scriptures were the people of Berea searching? (See Ac 17:11)

In John 5:39, what scriptures did Jesus want searched that testified of him?

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

But Im not interested in the unending debate between the Septuagint vs the Masoretic texts, nor have any time to be part of a"King James Only" , "Book of Enoch" .etc debates.

No one is debating any of these books and texts. All that I am interested in is the Bible, in the English language. You can use any version that you wish. I use the King James because I like it. I do not claim that the KJV is the only Bible that is endorsed by God and I never will. So get your mind on the English Bible, what ever version you want and answer the questions that I have asked. If you are interested in the truth then be as direct in your answer as possible and support your response with scripture where ever possible.

[Saxon]

Your answer seems to be answering some different question. It does not answer what I have asked.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

. Reality tends to have that effect on our treasured abstract interpretations—.....

The Bible is not written for private interpretation!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by asdf

"is called a perversion" — [citation needed]

http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm

[alanmolstad]

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ****sexuals,or thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if any these repent , they will be forgiven.







Let me know if you have any more questions on this topic.

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ****sexuals,or thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if any these repent , they will be forgiven.







Let me know if you have any more questions on this topic.

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

****sexuality is not a "lifestyle". There's nothing to repent of. Gay people are beautiful and good and normal and loved by God just the way they are, despite all the hatred and ignorance and discrimination and shame thrown at them in God's name.

It's sinful to call profane what God has made clean.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

Repent. . .
I know some people who want to "repent" of this and don't lead a ****sexual lifestyle, but still sin in their heart with the same lusts.

I"m not sure what question I"m asking but it would be nice if you could fish for an answer to the unspoken.

an interesting question....

To answer the unspoken question?.........
very interesting way to wake me up this morning and an interesting challenge.


It's likely that later today I will have this much better answer thought of , but for now this is my first thoughts on your post.



There is no temptation common to the Gays that is so powerful that the Christian faith is helpless to meet it.
So as with any other sin and temptation to sin that all humans face, the answer from the Scriptures is to center your heart on the Lord.

Fill your thoughts with the Word of the Lord, and it is like a seed planted there that grows and grows and will push out all other thoughts.



It must start with a moment of self-reflection where you see the truth that a sin is a sin, and the attempt to "call" it something else might fool men, but never fools God!

To "REPENT" is to "re" - "think"

To "think about that again"

In today's wording I would say that it means " To spend some time thinking about that..."


So the first step is this coming to terms with the sinfulness of your life, and the seeking of being made clean.

For only in the blood of Christ are people made clean from this and all other sin.



I do know that the closer you draw to your Lord, the more even the smallest of errors are driven out of your life...