The contradiction 2

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What works are required for salvation according to the verses above?

dberrie---Obedience to the Mosaic Law is not necessary for salvation, as Paul maintains throughout the NT.

But if you believe that Paul was referring to any obedience to Jesus Christ--could you explain this anomaly to your faith alone theology:


Romans2:5-11--"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God."


If Paul was referring to obedience to Jesus Christ's commandments in Ephesians 2:8--could you explain for us his reversal throughout the NT in relating such things as continuance and well doing to eternal life?

I have heard a number of times the reference to Ephesians 2:8 as a disclaimer by Paul that obedience to Jesus Christ has anything to do with eternal life.

No works necessary.

Could anyone give any reasonable explanation why it is that Paul taught that our actions and our continuance are connected to eternal life--and the interpretation of Ephesians2:8 by the faith alone that neither are necessary for eternal life?

[Billyray]

I have heard a number of times the reference to Ephesians 2:8 as a disclaimer by Paul that obedience to Jesus Christ has anything to do with eternal life.

No works necessary.

Could anyone give any reasonable explanation why it is that Paul taught that our actions and our continuance are connected to eternal life--and the interpretation of Ephesians2:8 by the faith alone that neither are necessary for eternal life?

Sure I would be happy to answer your question. It is part of Paul's argument that continues into chapter 3. Nobody is righteous no not one which is what we have been trying to tell you over and over again but you refuse to listen.


Romans 3 NIV
"9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.


So the question then becomes how do we become righteous is no one is righteous? We are righteous when we place our faith in Christ. His righteousness is imputed to us.

Romans 3
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---Obedience to the Mosaic Law is not necessary for salvation, as Paul maintains throughout the NT.

But if you believe that Paul was referring to any obedience to Jesus Christ--could you explain this anomaly to your faith alone theology:


Romans2:5-11--"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God."


If Paul was referring to obedience to Jesus Christ's commandments in Ephesians 2:8--could you explain for us his reversal throughout the NT in relating such things as continuance and well doing to eternal life?

I have heard a number of times the reference to Ephesians 2:8 as a disclaimer by Paul that obedience to Jesus Christ has anything to do with eternal life.

No works necessary.

Could anyone give any reasonable explanation why it is that Paul taught that our actions and our continuance are connected to eternal life--and the interpretation of Ephesians2:8 by the faith alone that neither are necessary for eternal life?

Sure I would be happy to answer your question. It is part of Paul's argument that continues into chapter 3. Nobody is righteous no not one which is what we have been trying to tell you over and over again but you refuse to listen.


Romans 3 NIV
"9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.


So the question then becomes how do we become righteous is no one is righteous? We are righteous when we place our faith in Christ. His righteousness is imputed to us.

Romans 3
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

This amounts to little more than boundary maintenance to protect the theology of the faith that is alone for salvation.

The scriptures are replete with verses from Christ and His disciples requiring and explaining obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.

Again--how does playing the cat in the litter box, and scratching the litter to cover the parts that stink to the faith alone solve the problem?

Paul connects obedience to Christ and eternal life--as does all the NT disciples.

How do you explain that? For instance--if the righteousness is given from God alone--and there is no requirement of obedience from us--then why are all of mankind judged according to their works--following death?


St John5:28-29--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."




Obviously--this includes the Christians and unbelievers alike, if it includes those who will go into both life or damnation.

If righteousness is apart from our actions--then why the statements of the disciples of Christ:


1 John3:7--"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."


Does God judge His own imputed righteousness in the judgment of those who have done good and evil for Life or damnation?

Your problem goes much deeper than your casual chunk-out-the-window-by- providing-a-transversing-scripture can ever answer to.

Your methology only makes the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Some explanation must be provided that harmonizes the Bible--not pits it against itself.

[Billyray]

This amounts to little more than boundary maintenance to protect the theology of the faith that is alone for salvation.

Are you going to simply ignore this whole section of Romans?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---This amounts to little more than boundary maintenance to protect the theology of the faith that is alone for salvation.

The scriptures are replete with verses from Christ and His disciples requiring and explaining obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary for His grace unto life.

Again--how does playing the cat in the litter box, and scratching the litter to cover the parts that stink to the faith alone solve the problem?

Paul connects obedience to Christ and eternal life--as does all the NT disciples.

How do you explain that? For instance--if the righteousness is given from God alone--and there is no requirement of obedience from us--then why are all of mankind judged according to their works--following death?


St John5:28-29--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."


Obviously--this includes the Christians and unbelievers alike, if it includes those who will go into both life or damnation.

If righteousness is apart from our actions--then why the statements of the disciples of Christ:


1 John3:7--"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."


Does God judge His own imputed righteousness in the judgment of those who have done good and evil for Life or damnation?

Your problem goes much deeper than your casual chunk-out-the-window-by- providing-a-transversing-scripture can ever answer to.

Your methology only makes the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Some explanation must be provided that harmonizes the Bible--not pits it against itself.

Are you going to simply ignore this whole section of Romans?

Is Romans2:5-11 not part of the epistle to the Romans:

Romans2:5-11---"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.


You circumvent the problem by trying to cover and cancel Paul's statements with those which apply to the Mosaic Law--and do nothing but make the Bible a list of contradictions by doing so.


Your onus, and that of the faith alone--is to explain why they have the Bible pitted against itself, and have to play out the cat in the litter box every time the scriptures which command obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto salvation appears.

It's a very tiring business, and does nothing but to make the Bible a study in contradictions.

How do you explain your contradictions?

[Billyray]

Is Romans2:5-11 not part of the epistle to the Romans:

Sure but you left out the conclusion to his argument.

Romans 3
"9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.


If no one is righteous then how do we obtain our righteousness which Paul explains a few verses down in chapter 3? By faith of course.

[Billyray]

You circumvent the problem by trying to cover and cancel Paul's statements with those which apply to the Mosaic Law--and do nothing but make the Bible a list of contradictions by doing so.

Paul's message is consistent throughout his writings that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
You circumvent the problem by trying to cover and cancel Paul's statements with those which apply to the Mosaic Law--and do nothing but make the Bible a list of contradictions by doing so.

Paul's message is consistent throughout his writings that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

But that would just add to the list of contradictions. Paul and the LDS believe one is saved by grace, not faith.

You have had a long list of such statements. Do you believe that one is saved by grace--or faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Are you going to simply ignore this whole section of Romans?

[quote] dberrie---Is Romans2:5-11 not part of the epistle to the Romans:

Romans2:5-11---"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Sure but you left out the conclusion to his argument.

Romans 3
"9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.


If no one is righteous then how do we obtain our righteousness which Paul explains a few verses down in chapter 3? By faith of course.

And what leads you to conclude that faith does not include the obedience Paul includes as a necessary component to receive eternal life?

That is your onus, Billyray. To demonstrate how it is that Paul connects our obedience to Jesus Christ with His grace unto salvation--and your attempt to disconnect and distance all from any obedience to Christ for His grace unto salvation.

Running to the term "faith" to prove your point will fail you--unless you can show that the term "faith" does not include obedience to Christ as it's integral component. One only renders the Bible as a very unreliable source of truth by trying to cancel and cover up one scripture with another.

[Billyray]

And what leads you to conclude that faith does not include the obedience Paul includes as a necessary component to receive eternal life?

The numerous scriptures that we have been over and over again teach that we are saved by faith and not by our works. If salvation depended on our works then nobody would be saved.

[dberrie2000]

The numerous scriptures that we have been over and over again teach that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

The LDS believe one is saved by grace. You have maintained that one is saved by faith. Which is correct?

[Billyray]

The LDS believe one is saved by grace.

You believe that you are saved by faith and your works.

[Billyray]

The LDS believe one is saved by grace.

So no faith or works are required?

[dberrie2000]

riginally Posted by Billyray View Post
The numerous scriptures that we have been over and over again teach that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

dberri---The LDS believe one is saved by grace. You have maintained that one is saved by faith. Which is correct?

You believe that you are saved by faith and your works.

Cite, please. I believe I am saved by grace. But you obviously don't. You maintain you are saved by faith. Which is true--the Bible record of being saved by grace, or your witness of being saved by faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe one is saved by grace.

So no faith or works are required?

Whatever is required--one is still saved by grace. You maintain one is saved by faith. Which is correct?

[Billyray]

I believe I am saved by grace.

So no faith or works are required?

[Billyray]

Whatever is required--one is still saved by grace.

So no faith or works are required for salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
The numerous scriptures that we have been over and over again teach that we are saved by faith and not by our works.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe one is saved by grace.

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So no faith or works are required?

dberrie---Whatever is required--one is still saved by grace. You maintain one is saved by faith. Which is correct?

So no faith or works are required for salvation?

Cite, please. There has been no such comment by me.

The question is--do you believe that we are saved by grace--or faith, as you maintain?

[Billyray]

Cite, please. There has been no such comment by me.

You said you are save by grace. Aren't faith and works required for salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So no faith or works are required for salvation?

dberrie----Cite, please. There has been no such comment by me.

The question is--do you believe that we are saved by grace--or faith, as you maintain?

You said you are save by grace. Aren't faith and works required for salvation?

Obedience to Jesus Christ is required for His grace unto life, as the scriptures show.

[Billyray]

Obedience to Jesus Christ is required for His grace unto life, as the scriptures show.

So you are saved by obedience in order to earn grace. This is works based salvation.

[dberrie2000]

So you are saved by obedience in order to earn grace. This is works based salvation.

Cite, please. Where do you find in any of my posts where I have claimed we are saved by obedience? That is your slanted diversion.

We are saved by grace--which goes to the obedient in Christ.

Is this an example of a works-based theology:

Matthew16:27--"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

[Billyray]

Cite, please. Where do you find in any of my posts where I have claimed we are saved by obedience? That is your slanted diversion.

We are saved by grace--which goes to the obedient in Christ.

It is in your own post. You work for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So you are saved by obedience in order to earn grace. This is works based salvation.

dberrie----Cite, please. Where do you find in any of my posts where I have claimed we are saved by obedience? That is your slanted diversion.

We are saved by grace--which goes to the obedient in Christ.

Is this an example of a works-based theology:

Matthew16:27--"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

It is in your own post. You work for salvation.

Is this an example of those who work for their salvation:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Is that the works-based theology you refer to?

[Billyray]

Is that the works-based theology you refer to?

you believe that perfect obedience to the commandments is required for exaltation and that your obedience earns grace. This is a works based theology.