So are you assuming that the Son had nothing prior to this?Originally Posted by dberrie2000
So are you assuming that the Son had nothing prior to this?
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Hebrews1:2-9--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;No such assumption has been stated nor quoted---but that does not negate the fact that Christ was the Heir of all things by inheritance.
That does not equate to any assumptions that Christ was not in possession of nothing--but it does preclude any conclusion that Christ eternally was in possession of all things. As the scripture states--He was the Heir of all things--and He was appointed to be the such. That reveals a point when it happens--not an eternal possession.
It does much damage to the Trinity, as the faith alone describe it.
So what did he get that he didn't have already?
The inheritance, as the scriptures show.
Billyray--you have not addressed that, as of yet. How could Jesus have been in possession of all things, when He obtained it as an Heir by inheritance?
Which it says was his name which he always had.
tell me what he inherited that he did not already have?
The inheritance, as the scriptures show.Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
So what did he get that he didn't have already?
Billyray--you have not addressed that, as of yet. How could Jesus have been in possession of all things, when He obtained it as an Heir by inheritance? [/quote]
You're circling, Billyray. Again--if Christ obtained all things through an inheritance--then He did not always possess it.
Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
Could you explain this parable:
Matthew21:33-40--"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?"
What was His inheritance?
Maybe you can actually answer the question. What did Jesus inherit that he didn't have already?
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
You're circling, Billyray. Again--if Christ obtained all things through an inheritance--then He did not always possess it.
The scriptures list that under the phrase "all things".
Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
If Jesus Christ was "appointed" anything--then there was a space when He did not have it.
If Jesus Christ was the "heir of all things"--then it was an inheritance--and there came a space when He inherited it.
Matthew21:33-40--"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Could you explain to us who this heir was--and what His inheritance was?
Jesus is God and he was the creator of all things. Everything belongs to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Originally Posted by Billyray
Maybe you can actually answer the question. What did Jesus inherit that he didn't have already?
dberrie----The scriptures list that under the phrase "all things".
Hebrews1:2--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
If Jesus Christ was "appointed" anything--then there was a space when He did not have it.
If Jesus Christ was the "heir of all things"--then it was an inheritance--and there came a space when He inherited it.
Matthew21:33-40--"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Could you explain to us who this heir was--and what His inheritance was?
But you did not specifically identify who the Heir is in this parable--could you also identify the "householder" for us?
When I build a house, I hire a contractor to build the house. When the house is completed, the contractor does not own the house because I paid him to build it. The same for Christ. When the scriptures state that Christ created all things, He did it under the direction of the Father. That is why Hebrews teaches:
This verse very plainly states that God the Father has appointed Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, to be heir of all things. The only way Christ could be appointed heir of anything is if he was not heir before being appointed heir.Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Marvin
“Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”
– G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00
I would agree with your statement here Marvin with the exception that Christ isn't joint owner of all things.
How could you believe that Christ and God the Father are the same God--and one own something that is not shared by the other?
Is that kinda likened unto the faith alone believing in the homoousios God(same substance)--and yet believing that Christ has a physical body, and God the Father does not?
I never said he was joint-owner. That is your statement.
Marvin
“Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”
– G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00
I would agree with your statement here Marvin with the exception that Christ isn't joint owner of all things.
And I never said he was.
Marvin
“Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”
– G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00
So---to you, He is co-owner (joint-owner) of all things?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
DBerrie200 said: The "one God" is identified within the Biblical NT--always as God the Father.
Please give a scripture that identifies the "one God" as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
I'll start with my scripture:
1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
dberrie2000 asked:
"If there is only one deity--is it Jesus Christ, God the Father, or the Holy Ghost?"
BillyRay answered: "The one God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
God is Spirit (John 4:24) and can be in multiple places at multiple times, including Jesus's Resurrected Glorified Sinless Body, so why do you ask "If there is only one deity--is it Jesus Christ, God the Father, or the Holy Ghost?" You have "seen" Jesus you have "seen" the Father (John 14:9). Since God is Spirit, you cannot actually SEE Him unless He "houses" Himself and takes on a physical form, as God the Son did. If He actually would show Himself to us in all His Glory (how He exists spiritually and what He LOOKS LIKE in the spiritual realm) you would "be ruined" and die in your current sinful body that cannot exist with God in its current state. His Brightness would destroy you because He is infintely Perfect and Holy.
There were a few prophets in the Old Testament that actually SAW God, even though they were just glimpses of His "Backside", and even though the Scriptures, in Exodus 33:20, say you cannot see Gods face and live- Exodus 33:20. He (JEHOVAH God) said, "You cannot see my face, for man may not see me and live."
The few prophets that DID see just a glimpse of God fell flat on their faces and thought they were going to die. Moses asked to see God and was told he could only see a short glimpse of His backside - Exodus 33:20- 33:
“You can not see my face: for no man shall see me, and live.” And the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by me, and you will stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away my hand, and you will see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.” It is interesting that this verse says that Gods Glory passes by. This is interesting when compared to Isaiah’s encounter with seeing God.
The Prophet Isaiah has an encounter with God in Isaiah 6:1-5:
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another: “Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.” At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty. In Keeping with Exodus 33:20, that no one can see Gods face and live, Isaiah thought he would die because he saw God. But now look at John 12:41 in the New Testament-"These things Isaiah said because he (Isaiah) saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)."John here states Isaiah saw Christ’s Glory! But Isaiah had stated earlier in Isaiah 6:1-5 that he had seen GOD and was ruined. Now looking at Isaiah 42:8, God says He will NOT give His GLORY to another, but look at what Jesus said in John 17:5- “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the GLORY I had with you before the world began.”
If God will not give or share his GLORY with anyone else, then this verse makes Jesus Christ God in human flesh.
DBerrie2000 asked: " So--who was Jesus' God?"
As a Man, Jesus, as an example to us, refered to the Father as His God, and relied on the Father while here on earth as an example to us.
Jesus, as a MAN (but STILL fully God) and as an example to US, was giving us an example of how WE should be as humans created by God. He often said things that appeared (to us)to make it seem He had a God. In 1 Peter1:3--"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.... as a human, the Father WAS Jesus's God as WE would see it (or pertaining to His and OUR humaness) but you cannot take one verse out of context without comparing it to other Scriptures- "You have seen Me, you have seen the Father" (John 14:9) "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1-3;14) He was the "unique" Son of God that "took on" flesh. Remember Jesus Christ gave up His Glory He had with the Father before becoming flesh (even though the Father will NOT share His Glory with another “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my Glory I will not give to another…” Isaiah 42:8) to come here, He EMPTIED Himself, made Himself a little lower than the Angels by becoming a Man because before that He was with God and WAS God (and STILL IS God).
Last edited by jdjhere; 05-31-2012 at 08:55 AM.
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14
Please provide scriptural support for this belief or admit that this is non-biblical.
Please provide scriptural support for this belief or admit it is non-biblical.
Pleas provide scriptural support for this belief or admit that it is non-biblical.
Please explain why the prophets of God lied when they said they saw God.
But they didn't die because they lived long enough to write about it. So explain who lied when God said that no man can see God and not die.
And yet Isaiah did not die. Please explain who lied.
Please provide further explanation. This belief that you have requires that I make a leap of faith to believe as you do.
If God the Father was Jesus' God, then doesn't that mean that you have more than 1 God? After all, God the Father is Jesus' God and Jesus is also God (although you have provide no clear scripture from the NT that says that Jesus is God). That makes for two Gods.
So in other words, Jesus wasn't really what he was setting the example for? It was just an example and not the real thing? Isn't this like a lie?
IOW, he lied.
Only if I overlook your obession with monotheism does this make sense. Otherwise, it is very confusing. And God is not the author of confusion. You will need to explain this much better and with better scriptural support to clear up the confusion.
And it would be much better if you allowed the scriptures to speak for themselves and not have to explain everything so much. When too much explanation is required, then one is suspected of trying to cover something up.
Marvin
“Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance.”
– G. K. Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/00
Look Marvin, most of your responses don't even make sense to me and when you say to give Scriptural proofs- the proofs ARE the Scriptures I quoted. Which part do you have a problem with?
Some of this was revealed to me directly from God as I prayed. I am sure you will not doubt that.
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14
jdhere--I am curious if you believe that Christ has a resurrected body of flesh and bones?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
jdjhere stated:
God is Spirit (John 4:24) and can be in multiple places at multiple times, including Jesus's Resurrected Glorified Sinless Body, so why do you ask "If there is only one deity--is it Jesus Christ, God the Father, or the Holy Ghost?"
Marvin said: Please provide scriptural support for this belief or admit that this is non-biblical.
Ok...Do you believe that God is Spirit as stated in John 4:24?
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14
Yes I do believe Christ had and has a body of Flesh and Bones, BigJulie, but NOT like OURS.
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" Compare Isaiah 42:8 to John 17:5. Compare Isaiah 6:1-5 to John 12:41. Read John 1:1-3;14
When we die and our resurrected, do you think we will have a body of flesh and bones like His?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
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